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HELP with Lannister in 2nd Edition!!!


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#1 Karl M

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 08:07 AM

My friends and I played around 20 games of the 1st edition (no expansion). We recently bought the 2nd edition and we were very happy with all the great stuff added in the game.


But we played our first game last Sunday (all 6 house we there) and we experienced a small discomfort on some of the House card especially the Lannister vs Greyjoy ones. We both know house cards are not supposed to be equal and all depends on many aspect of the game.


So we did many scenarios in which the Greyjoy tried to take Riverrun and saw that it was impossible for the Lannister player to counter in any way. We spent a couple of hours trying to see if somehow we were wrong but it seems we are not. This is by not applying the new Battle cards systems. It all because of the Aeron Damphair card that let you see the opponent card and for the cost 2 power token makes you changed the card ( but Aeron is discarded) Combined with the +1 the Valyrian blade it gives no chance to the Lannister player.


Also, a Tyrell / Greyjoy alliance in the first turn can pretty much destroy the Lannister player. Since Tyrell can use the Loras card to make an attack on Lannisport with Mace Tyrell (see card description for details on that) but that a whole different story!


Any thought on that?


Thanks

 



#2 Olvirki

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 10:16 PM

 I don't have this game yet so I can't help you but I was wondering. Can you delete one of the threads ? The thread seems to have doubled. Or can only moderators delete threads ? 

And I hope you get an answer to you question.



#3 hey_yu

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 11:17 PM

Karl M said:

This is by not applying the new Battle cards systems. It all because of the Aeron Damphair card that let you see the opponent card and for the cost 2 power token makes you changed the card ( but Aeron is discarded) Combined with the +1 the Valyrian blade it gives no chance to the Lannister player.

I haven't received my copy of the 2nd edition yet.  Unfortunately, I pre-ordered it with the Rex game which at the time was supposed to be released in 4th quarter of this year, but looks to be pushed back to 2012.  Based on your description.  Maybe try implementing the Battle Card system to see if it can balance it out better.  Would be interested in hearing if it helps.  Thx.



#4 Rubinon

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 07:59 PM

I don't think there is a way for Lannister to prevent Greyjoy from taking Riverrun in the first edition either. Your best bet as Lannister is to leave them Riverrun on the first turn, if they want to take it, and push them back later, when they don't have the blade anymore.



#5 jhagen

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 01:54 PM

just picked up the game 2 saturdays ago and ran a 6 player then and a 4 player this past weekend and greyjoy facerolls lannister. lannister cannot counter in any way because of the cards in the houses and the units in play.

Last week i was Lannister and this week i was Greyjoy. in both instances Greyjoy was able to take the strongholds to the east and northeast of lannister with ease.

First turn - took 3 strongholds and one castle.

turn 2 muster card came up and mustered 7 units including 3 fleet . clash of kings bid card came up as well and so bid for raven cause i had the most points due to my fleet in the port.

turn 3 moved fleets to all surrounding areas and drove lannister to his port with the house fleet (3) card. placed (*) consolidat power token in home port and capital for my armies and built a siege there.

turn 4 took lannister's home territory and hit 7 victory and game over.

This game was not playtested well.

If you look at the 3 player setup its fine. Stark, Lannister, Baratheon. thats fine

4 player was crap. Lannister had to contend with Greyjoy facerolling him the entire time while stark and Bar got it on with their navies. and Bara slowly getting bigger with costal strongholds available. Recommendation: Use GreyJoy/Tyrell instead of  GreyJoy/Lannister. Trust me on this one.

In the 6 player Stark was too powerful to contend with as he is in the best defensive position with MANY uncontested areas to support. and can generate way too much influence. One caveat was that this was our first game playing GoT.

The one important thing is to look at the setup of players and see what castles and strongholds he can take in 1 move, then 2 moves away from his home starting territory. Then look at the number of UNCONTESTED castles and strongholds he/she can take in 1 or two moves. top 2 will always be

Greyjoy and Baratheon all the way.

Then look at the house cards. then compare those cards to the nearest player who will offer them a challenge.

Then you will have to do what we did and the playtesters didn't revise player setup because the board equality is lopsided.

Playing it agaiin this saturday with modifications i will post them when i do.

 

cheers.



#6 Joe Dizzy

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 01:02 AM

jhagen said:

First turn - took 3 strongholds and one castle.

I don't have the map in front of me, but how does that work with only 2 marching orders and no more than 3 land units?



#7 illuvatar

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 05:02 AM

 Pyk, Riverrun, Seaguard and Flint's Finger i guess...



#8 jhagen

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 10:04 AM

one marching order placed on the home territory (or any territory for that matter) allows you to move units out to each and every connecting territory for just one token.

therefore one token placed in a territory with 2 units allows me to move to 2 separate regions.



#9 Joe Dizzy

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 12:41 PM

jhagen said:

 

one marching order placed on the home territory (or any territory for that matter) allows you to move units out to each and every connecting territory for just one token.

therefore one token placed in a territory with 2 units allows me to move to 2 separate regions.

 

 

Sure. I was just surprised how you can take over 3 strongholds and one castle on the first turn. If you split up your land units, you might be able to take 3 strongholds. It's the fourth one you take, I can't figure out. Since you only have 3 land units. Not to mention there isn't a fourth stronghold or castle in reach from Greyjoy's starting position.

Also, how do you end up with the most power tokens in turn 2, if Clash of Kings comes up in pile II? I assume you played a consolidate power order on the ship in port, which would garner you 1 power token. Leaving you with at most 6 power tokens, if you chose not to leave one behind in Greywater Watch. This would still leave you - at best - one power token in the lead. Provided, nobody else came up with the same idea.

And let's say you did save up all your power tokens for the raven. This means you probably ended up further down on both the Iron Throne and Fiefdoms track. Likely behind Lannister, putting you at a distinct disadvantage in Seagard. A Lannister army on the offensive in turn 2 - with all house cards still in hand - is pretty hard to defend against. All Lannister needs to do is to raid a possible support order in the bay, and Seagard is lost.

If - on the other hand - you took your lone footman to Moat Cailin, hoping to support Seagard from there, you will have a Stark army to fight off first, draining another hand card, if you want to keep the stronghold there.



#10 Joe Dizzy

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 01:10 PM

Sorry, double post.

Can somebody delete this?



#11 jhagen

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 07:55 AM

Joe Dizzy said:

jhagen said:

 

one marching order placed on the home territory (or any territory for that matter) allows you to move units out to each and every connecting territory for just one token.

therefore one token placed in a territory with 2 units allows me to move to 2 separate regions.

 

 

Sure. I was just surprised how you can take over 3 strongholds and one castle on the first turn. If you split up your land units, you might be able to take 3 strongholds. It's the fourth one you take, I can't figure out. Since you only have 3 land units. Not to mention there isn't a fourth stronghold or castle in reach from Greyjoy's starting position.

Also, how do you end up with the most power tokens in turn 2, if Clash of Kings comes up in pile II? I assume you played a consolidate power order on the ship in port, which would garner you 1 power token. Leaving you with at most 6 power tokens, if you chose not to leave one behind in Greywater Watch. This would still leave you - at best - one power token in the lead. Provided, nobody else came up with the same idea.

And let's say you did save up all your power tokens for the raven. This means you probably ended up further down on both the Iron Throne and Fiefdoms track. Likely behind Lannister, putting you at a distinct disadvantage in Seagard. A Lannister army on the offensive in turn 2 - with all house cards still in hand - is pretty hard to defend against. All Lannister needs to do is to raid a possible support order in the bay, and Seagard is lost.

If - on the other hand - you took your lone footman to Moat Cailin, hoping to support Seagard from there, you will have a Stark army to fight off first, draining another hand card, if you want to keep the stronghold there.

by "took" i meant "have" or "held or "own"

it is of course impossible to take(capture) 4 territories with 3 armies unless you are tyrell. which can with a house card.

Greyjoy is the only house that can take 1 stronhold and 1 castle without contention. and a 3rd stronghold with only lannister to oppose in the first turn. if a muster card comes up thats 7 SEVEN unit points to muster.

fifedoms and throne track only matters in later game turns. If greyjoy holds bidding to the raven he will know exactly how much power everyone else will have. (5 to start) and greyjoy will have (6). fifedoms bidding can be done once you see what others bid on the iron throne as greyjoy will be in the initial control position.

grey joys "3" card is making ships worth 2 each . and his "2" card makes the value of any other card "0". the combination of those cards is too much for lannister to hold its own against greyjoy.

there is no combination of cards or moves that can be made that will counter a greyjoy assault. but we can go over this back and forth for many replies.



#12 Joe Dizzy

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 09:46 AM

jhagen said:
by "took" i meant "have" or "held or "own"

I see. I thought you meant took as in taken, as in marched into a new area, which is what you would do in the game. Hence my confusion.

jhagen said:
Greyjoy is the only house that can take 1 stronhold and 1 castle without contention. and a 3rd stronghold with only lannister to oppose in the first turn. if a muster card comes up thats 7 SEVEN unit points to muster.

Sure, but the supply track doesn't really allow for all that much manpower. You are most likely going to end up with some serious logistical problems, trying to push your new troops effectively. I'm not saying it can't be done, I just can't quite tell by your very truncated response how that works exactly. Would you mind explaining it in some more detail? I'm not too good at visualising such moves - never been much of a chess player - so a few more words to help the not so insightful would be greatly appreciated.

jhagen said:
fifedoms and throne track only matters in later game turns.

Claims like this one for example, I find very strange for somebody who's claiming to have the game all figured out. The importance of either is situational and some houses can afford a lower ranking on the Iron Throne track, while others should look to always attack first - namely: Lannister. And the importance of the Valyrian blade - especially in a four player game - cannot be overstated.

jhagen said:
If greyjoy holds bidding to the raven he will know exactly how much power everyone else will have.

Or because they tell him at the beginning of every bidding. But that doesn't change anything. If he doesn't bid on either the Iron Throne or does not spend enough to move past Lannister on the Fifedoms track, he gives an advantage to Lannister. Doubly so, if Lannister should manage to take control of the Valyrian Blade.
If Greyjoy loses the blade, he has a 2:3 chance of giving one of his immediate neighbours a military advantage, which they would be foolish not to use on him.

jhagen said:
grey joys "3" card is making ships worth 2 each . and his "2" card makes the value of any other card "0". the combination of those cards is too much for lannister to hold its own against greyjoy.

This assumes that Stark isn't on the attack against Greyjoy. Which presupposes a Stark player who has seriously misjudged the situation. You seem to assume that only Lannister would oppose Greyjoy. I see no reason why that should be the case. In fact, there's hardly a reason for Baratheon and Stark to be at each other's throat in the first two turns.

jhagen said:
there is no combination of cards or moves that can be made that will counter a greyjoy assault. but we can go over this back and forth for many replies.

So you claim, but your proof has been mostly boisterous statements with me having to draw out the details of your "unstoppable" Greyjoy scheme. I am honestly quite curious how every contingency can be taken care of in your plan. Not least of all because I am going to be playing Greyjoy in our next Game of Thrones game, and would love to try it out in practice. Just so I can see the proof with my own eyes.



#13 jhagen

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 11:56 AM

we are gettting off topic Joe:

now you are just attacking my posts and grammar-nazi-ing me.

this is not 4-chan please leave your flame-wars there.

please offer a strategy to the OP for lannister to defeat Greyjoy.

 



#14 Joe Dizzy

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 12:25 PM

jhagen said:

 

we are gettting off topic Joe:

now you are just attacking my posts and grammar-nazi-ing me.

this is not 4-chan please leave your flame-wars there.

please offer a strategy to the OP for lannister to defeat Greyjoy.

 

 

My comments are hardly off-topic or even close to being a flame. I politely asked you for some more details on your unbeatable Greyjoy strategy, because I cannot quite figure it out. So far it does not seem particularly solid, other than pointing out how Greyjoy could steamroll Westeros, provided nobody but Lannister bothered to intervene. Game of Thrones is very much about every player doing their best to keep the others in check. If Stark (or even Tyrell) fail to do so, a quick Greyjoy victory is definitely possible. But that is pretty much true of every set-up in this game. If your immediate neighbours leave you alone for too long, you can quickly turn into a hard to control threat.

So as for a good Lannister strategy against Greyjoy: get Stark to attack Greyjoy. You can easily convince him by pointing out, that you don't have the manpower to do it alone. That's the key to playing Lannister anyway, convincing others to turn their attention to your biggest threats.



#15 Flagrin

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 08:01 AM

Had the same issue in a 5 player game. I was Lannister and the Greyjoys absolutely obliterated me. I didn't win a single battle against them and was completely wiped off the board by turn 8. Once they controlled the high seas it was game over for poor old me.



#16 zorzogoth

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 10:34 PM

 

The Greyjoys have very strong character cards and may seem to overpower the Lannisters at first look. But I don't agree that it is a hopeless battle for the Lannisters.

 

Maybe the following strategy might help.

 

You should leave Riverrun open for Greyjoy in the first round, since it's impossible to defend it if Greyjoy wants it. Instead go for Harrenhal. Move your 1 infantry and 1 cavalry into Stoney Sept. (has now 3 unit army) Then move two infantry from Stoney Sept into Harrenhal. Leave a cavalry in Stoney Sept for support.

Next round if a muster has happened :

you buy another infantry at Harrenhal and two infantry at Lannisport. The greyjoy will likely have bought a cavalry in Riverrun and units in Seaguard if he took that one.

If a bidding for the tracks occurs, try to remain high on the iron throne track, so you can attack before greyjoy does. Also Try to hold on to the Raven token for the special orders and hope for the greyjoy to loose the Valyrian sword.

Place a raid token on your boat to counter a raid or support on the Greyjoy boat, a support in Lannisport , a support +1 in Stoney Sept, a march +1 in Harrenhal.

You'll now be trying to attack Riverrun with Kevan Lannister. This will give 6 str for the 3 infantry, 1 from Kevan, 1 from your march order, 1 from your support in Stoney Sept and 2 from your Cavalry in Stoney sept. Also give a support to Lannisport for the two infantry units over there they add another 4 from Kevan. This will be an attack worth 15 .

Greyjoy can get 15 theoretically but this will be very difficult for him : 5 from units in Riverrun, 1 from the sword, 2 from defence (if he even has this or if it isn't raided by your boat) , 1 support from his boat (if not raided) , 1or 2 support from the infantry in the territory north of Riverrun, 4 being his highest card.

Kevan is your friend, use him

 


 



#17 cadleo

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 03:17 AM

zorzogoth said:

 

The Greyjoys have very strong character cards and may seem to overpower the Lannisters at first look. But I don't agree that it is a hopeless battle for the Lannisters.

 

Maybe the following strategy might help.

 

You should leave Riverrun open for Greyjoy in the first round, since it's impossible to defend it if Greyjoy wants it. Instead go for Harrenhal. Move your 1 infantry and 1 cavalry into Stoney Sept. (has now 3 unit army) Then move two infantry from Stoney Sept into Harrenhal. Leave a cavalry in Stoney Sept for support.

Next round if a muster has happened :

you buy another infantry at Harrenhal and two infantry at Lannisport. The greyjoy will likely have bought a cavalry in Riverrun and units in Seaguard if he took that one.

If a bidding for the tracks occurs, try to remain high on the iron throne track, so you can attack before greyjoy does. Also Try to hold on to the Raven token for the special orders and hope for the greyjoy to loose the Valyrian sword.

Place a raid token on your boat to counter a raid or support on the Greyjoy boat, a support in Lannisport , a support +1 in Stoney Sept, a march +1 in Harrenhal.

You'll now be trying to attack Riverrun with Kevan Lannister. This will give 6 str for the 3 infantry, 1 from Kevan, 1 from your march order, 1 from your support in Stoney Sept and 2 from your Cavalry in Stoney sept. Also give a support to Lannisport for the two infantry units over there they add another 4 from Kevan. This will be an attack worth 15 .

Greyjoy can get 15 theoretically but this will be very difficult for him : 5 from units in Riverrun, 1 from the sword, 2 from defence (if he even has this or if it isn't raided by your boat) , 1 support from his boat (if not raided) , 1or 2 support from the infantry in the territory north of Riverrun, 4 being his highest card.

Kevan is your friend, use him

 


 

 

The Lannisters should not have to go to such lengths to simply be a playable faction. FFG screwed up and made the Greyjoys way too powerful and the Lannisters way too weak. Look at the Jaime Lannister card, 2 Strength and 1 Sword. What a joke. Is that supposed to be his stats with only 1 hand? Serious lack of playtesting for this one.



#18 zorzogoth

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 06:01 AM

I agree that I would have liked to see more flavour on the Lannister house cards.

I don't think it's impossible for the Lannisters to do well, and they are certainly not weaker then Greyjoys although I think they are possibly one of the hardest to win with. They start with the Raven token while Greyjoy can't even use a star order in a 6 player game. They also start high on the iron throne track. They have a very good supporting area being Stony sept. 

Also there are very good Lannister cards :

* Kevan Lannister : boosts infantry 

* Gregor Clegane : three swords

Not fantastic, but ok :

* Tyrion : situational but it can be good

* Tywin : extra power tokens are ok but a little bit boring

* The hound : two towers are ok

* Jaime : only one sword is a little boring for him

bad :

* Cersei : very situational

I played two 5player games as Lannister recently. In the first one I succesfully took Riverrun, Harrenhall and Blackwater then expanded into searoad marches. But Tyrell was too quick to conquer 7 cities, since Baratheon was an inexperienced player. My strategy in this game was to talk Greyjoy into a war with the Starks. Both fought hard against each other and Winterfell switched sides two times, leaving both very weakened. I hesitated to go south, because I was preying upon the north and preparing myself to crush the weakened Greyjoys and Starks.

The second game I again took Harrenhall ,Riverrun and Blackwater, supported by the Stony Sept. My navy was just about to make a crushing attack against the Greyjoy navy, before Tyrell conquered 7 cities again due to Baratheon playing bad (also a new player)

There was another game by another group that evening in which I saw the Lannisters crush the Greyjoys and march north. Greyjoy got obliterated by the Lannisters and an opportunistic Stark. Since it was already late they stopped the game prematurely.

That's three games in which Greyjoy did poorer than the Lannisters.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



#19 cadleo

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 07:38 AM

zorzogoth said:

I don't think it's impossible for the Lannisters to do well, and they are certainly not weaker then Greyjoys although I think they are possibly one of the hardest to win with. They start with the Raven token while Greyjoy can't even use a star order in a 6 player game. They also start high on the iron throne track. They have a very good supporting area being Stony sept. 

I played two 5player games as Lannister recently. In the first one I succesfully took Riverrun, Harrenhall and Blackwater then expanded into searoad marches. But Tyrell was too quick to conquer 7 cities, since Baratheon was an inexperienced player. My strategy in this game was to talk Greyjoy into a war with the Starks. Both fought hard against each other and Winterfell switched sides two times, leaving both very weakened. I hesitated to go south, because I was preying upon the north and preparing myself to crush the weakened Greyjoys and Starks.

The second game I again took Harrenhall ,Riverrun and Blackwater, supported by the Stony Sept. My navy was just about to make a crushing attack against the Greyjoy navy, before Tyrell conquered 7 cities again due to Baratheon playing bad (also a new player)

There was another game by another group that evening in which I saw the Lannisters crush the Greyjoys and march north. Greyjoy got obliterated by the Lannisters and an opportunistic Stark. Since it was already late they stopped the game prematurely.

That's three games in which Greyjoy did poorer than the Lannisters.

 

 

The Lannisters should be one of the most powerful factions as it is in the books. "Possibly one of the hardest to win with", you say? You have lost the arguement with that statement, ser.

You gave three examples of someone who is new or does not know how to play as the Greyjoys. If you played against someone who knew what they were doing, the Greyjoys would spank the Lannisters every time unless they got seriously lucky with tide of battle cards and somehow a mustering card never comes up. Your navy was going to make a crushing attack!? Dude, if I was playing Greyjoy you would never have a navy.

Its unbalanced, simple as that.



#20 Orctavius

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 05:58 PM

 I recently purchased Second edition, but have yet to play (or first edition).  I'm looking forward to getting a game in January.  Anyway, the errata for first edition suggests switching Tyrells and the Greyjoys positions on the fiefdoms track so that the Greyjoys don't start with the sword.  Is the switch advisable for second edition as well?






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