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Bayonets: stab and shoot?


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#1 Necrozius

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 07:41 AM

A brand new Guardsman player wanted to know how we could handle the following maneuver:

Stab with bayonet, then shoot gun at closer than point blank range.

The GM said "SURE WHY NOT" without a second thought, but I intercepted, stating that I felt that it was overpowered to allow an instant auto hit after a successful melee strike.

I came up with a temporary compromise solution:

if a PC causes critical damage using a bayonet on a gun (like a spear) then it counts as explosive damage. My reasonng: a stab wound plus point blank gun shot would be especially messy.

What do you think? Does that seem fair? Stupid? Is there already a rule for this maneuver? SHOULD there be a rule for it?

 

:)



#2 Ph7517

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 09:08 PM

While you technically can’t use a gun that close according to the rules. I would say that the move would allow the player to roll damage on both the bayonet and the gun and use the higher of the two.



#3 Dictator

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 03:01 AM

In Dark Heresy, by assumed combat abstraction, opponent should have a chance to react somehow on your attack, so stub and shoot maneuver can be performed on helpless target, for example. In case of nonhelpless opponent I would allow to preform this maneuver in two consecutive turns with some Opposite WS tests or smth. similar. Or, for example, if character has Takedown talent, he can try to Stun opponent (with bayonet) and shoot him afterward in next turn.



#4 venkelos

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 10:14 AM

If it was me, I'd probably just say go for it. I would run it something like "if you land the good melee hit with a bayonet-mounted weapon, say a lasgun, roll a ranged hit with the gun, at -10. If you hit, you shoot them in the torso (or wherever), and if you miss, then the combination impact/movements of your target cause your finger to miss the timing on the trigger, and you don't discharge the gun." That, or if you had one of the multiple attack talents, you could just activate that, and make a melee and a ranged attack.

If you really wanted to, you could even make a maneuver out of it, and ensure balance. Call it the Rifle Jab, or something more fitting.

Rifle Jab
Action: Standard
Effect: Make a Difficult (-10) Weapon Skill check with a bayonet-mounted basic weapon. If the attack succeeds, roll damage normally and immediately make a Difficult (-10) Ballistic Skill check. If the attack succeeds, roll damage normally. If this roll results in three or more degrees of failure, the bayonet is snapped off of the weapon, and falls to the ground.

With this setup, the difficulties are reflected (trying to pick a specific spot, and get the bayonet to stick, and then pulling the trigger through the impart and flailing of the victim. Also, with the penalties to the checks, it reflects how how it could work, but also why it doesn't happen all the time.

It seems like an okay idea (yours or mine), and one Guardsmen should even like, since historically, once they end up in melee, it's usually over for them, otherwise. Many other things are so much better at melee combat (almost any Nid, Orks, Space Marines (prey it's not one of those) than average Guardsmen that, even if they go down, it would be a nice way to do as much damage as possible, and sell their lives dearly.



#5 Darth Smeg

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 09:39 PM

When "stabbing" with a bayonet you do not hold the rifle in the same grip as when you fire it. You want to drive that pointy sucker HARD into the body of your enemy, and thus you move your hand away from the trigger, and grip the stock like you would a spear. 

Combining a stab with a shot is not as easy as one might imagine. It requires changing grips, something that takes time and dexterity. So while I would not say "No" (Rule of Cool), it is not an auto-success either.

Perhaps give some penalites to the WS test to handle the more complicated manoeuvre, but I see no reason to call for a BS test. You're not really aiming here :)


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#6 DarkArbitor

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 01:49 AM

Anyone else imagining a SM using this with a Bolter /w under-hung powersword spearing some unlucky sod and blasting its half-dead corpse off the bayonet with a burst from the bolter. (Rule of Cool initiated!)



#7 Morangias

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 09:15 AM

I wouldn't allow such shenanigans. Not without some custom Talent, at least.

Huh, custom Talent...

Eat this!

Prerequisites: Basic Weapon Training (Any), Hip Shooting, BS 35, Agi 35

Most imperial regiments are trained to stop shooting when the enemy gets too close, switching to their combat knives or bayonets. Some squads with greater propensity for close combat, though, refuse to abandon their trusty rifles for such a trivial reason as an enemy engaging them with a chainsword.

Characters possessing this Talent can use their Basic class ranged weapons for shooting enemies currently engaged in melee with them.

Trench Warfare Training

Prerequisites: Basic Weapon Training (Any), Melee Weapon Training (Primitive), WS 30

Not all Imperial Regiments are issued bayonet attachments to their rifles - after all, their superior training with best quality armaments issued by the Departmento Munitorum should preclude the enemies of the God-Emperor from ever advancing close enough. Some seasoned Guardsmen learn that the unthinkable does happen some times, and they compensate by training to defend themselves using the bulk of their trusty gun.

Upon learning this Talent, the character can treat his Basic class ranged weapon as a Melee weapon dealing d10 Impact damage with the Primitive* and Defensive qualities. Should a character who has this talent utilize a weapon with a Melee Attachment upgrade, he can decide which melee profile to use at the start of each of his Turns.

Shoot and Stab

Prerequisites: Two Weapon Wielder (Ballistic and Melee), Eat this!, Trench Warfare Training, WS 35

True specialists in trench warfare don't treat the shooting and stabbing ends of their rifle as separate weapons, but rather as one versatile tool of destruction.

Whenever equipped with a Basic ranged weapon with a bayonet attachment, the character can make both melee and ranged attacks on the same Turn, subject to all rules of two weapon fighting.

 

* For BC rules users, the Primitive trait of this weapon has a value of 6.

 


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#8 DarkArbitor

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 03:19 AM

Maybe we should nip this in the bud for all those TRUE MUNCHKINS out there, someway of combining those talents with Lightnig strike, Duel wielding, Duel shot, and i think im missing a few to abuse this with but, just to hit the topic before the munchkins grab it, or maybe im a munchkin, oh well.



#9 Morangias

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 04:31 AM

It may get a bit silly if the GM allows you to equip a Plasma Gun with a Power Bayonet, but still, that shouldn't be that much better than a guy with a Plasma Pistol and a Power Sword. And it costs you a few extra Talents. All in all, I think it creates an interesting fighting style very fit for a grizzled Guard vet.


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#10 Gregorius21778

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 02:22 AM

Darth Smeg said:

When "stabbing" with a bayonet you do not hold the rifle in the same grip as when you fire it. You want to drive that pointy sucker HARD into the body of your enemy, and thus you move your hand away from the trigger, and grip the stock like you would a spear. 

Combining a stab with a shot is not as easy as one might imagine. It requires changing grips, something that takes time and dexterity. So while I would not say "No" (Rule of Cool), it is not an auto-success either.

Perhaps give some penalites to the WS test to handle the more complicated manoeuvre, but I see no reason to call for a BS test. You're not really aiming here :)

Basically, I think the same but have a different approach then Morangias. Since levels of success often do not mean JACK in Melee in this game, I am big fan of including them in the houserules

Talent: Step & Shoot
Preq: Basic Weapon Training (Las or SP); Melee Weapon Training; Agility 35+  WS: 35+

If the pc uses a basic weapon with a bajonet (Las or SP) and hits the target with an attack that scores three levels of success, the pc is allowed to use his reaction to fire one shot from the weapon into his target. Now role to hit is needed and the weapon counts as having the tearing quality.

I would not say "max damage" since the abstract method of damage roling covers more then just the sheer applied power but where the exactly the strike hit, if it was a solid hit, if it might have glanced of off something etc. You know, the full world of randomness



#11 Zakalwe

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 01:01 PM

Or give the manoeuvre exactly the same xp cost and mechanic as dual strike and make it available at a comparable level.

Done.



#12 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 25 December 2011 - 07:20 AM

When you're attacking with a bayonette you are a) not holding it with your hand on the trigger presumably. (?) and b) slashing around with it at a moving target, not planting it into an unmoving tree trunk that lets you hold it there,



#13 Plasmafest

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 02:35 AM

This subject strikes me as one of those De-motivational posters,  Bayoneting: You're doing it wrong.

I believe World War I (also II ?) soldiers were taught to have their rifle barrels empty when expecting bayonet work, presumably for fear of friendly fire in a swirly melee. The only historical/apocryphal instances of bayonet-shooting I can recall generally revolved around freeing a bayonet trapped in an opponent's body, so that it could be quickly readied for the next rather than to kill them twice over.

40K universe having Orks and suchlike, I can see desperate soldiers needing to kill an enemy several times over, but I'd suggest adapting existing rules. For example:  If use of Melee-Attachment causes at least a point of Critical Damage, the next Ranged Attack against the same opponent may benefit from the effects of a Full Action Aim, following the usual rules of Aiming (such as not Dodging etc.).



#14 Cobramax76

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 01:12 PM

Not sure how many of you have actually been given bayonet training with modern rifles BUT...in interest of game balance ill put it this way.

YES you can do it NO there is NO attack penalty..BUT...you WILL take a penalty on the initial stabbing actions damage

This action was a common one for WW1 and 2 troops on the front lines..they did NOT remove the gun once they stabbed..they fired TO remove the enemy from their bayonet!

HOWEVER..to balance this is easy ( also to add realism )

when they make the initial WS check to stab with the bayonet...do so as normal BUT..when rolling damage you divide it in HALF ( representing the intent to fire once you imbed the bayonet so your holding the grip as normal and are therefore NOT able to "give it your all".  IF you manage to do any actual damage with the stab ( your bayonet blade is stuck in target and firing at them while impaled on the blade makes them PRONE IE AUTOMATIC success BUT the targets armour and toughness will be applied against the shot as normal for individual attacks.

As for Las shots being messy..they wont be as long as your shooting into someone whos wearing clothing ( the las hit cauterizes the entry point but will cause expansion through the area surrounding the wound cavity as the superheated shot penetrates..essentially vaporizing the targets fluids within the body.

The position your hand takes on the rifle when firing/stabbing solely depends on the style of rifle used ( NOT all rifles have hand grips remember..some ( like all hunting rifles ) are held directly on the stock ( just like most WW1 and 2 rifles ) for a simple means to shoot and stab with same grip placement.

So to do it is this formula:

Roll WS to determine bayonet stab ( if successful roll HALF damage ( including Strength bonus ) As a FREE action to remove the blade you pull trigger ( AUTOMATIC success on PRONE target ) roll damage..

NOTES:  IF your using a bolter especially and you try this..you can basically guarantee youll destroy the bayonet blade FIRST time...due to the explosive damage automatically hitting the blade from the shot...so you DO risk ruining part of your weapon doing it ( represented by critical hits automatically destroying the blade no matter what type of rifle your using...ANY criticals scored during the firing...WILL destroy the blade.

That drawback should give anyone pause before actually considering it...



#15 DarkArbitor

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 02:54 AM

I personally don't think the talent needs any real special rules just adjust the already existing rules so make a talent that is basically Dual Shot but requires both 2-weap  talents and run it off the rules they have for that where armor only counts once for the shot (but Toughness is still twice) and it has to be made in melee combat, and only have them roll one to hit roll.



#16 Blood Pact

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 05:54 AM

Someone everyone shouting 'Rule of Cool' have to remember is that if you're going to allow this trick, it needs to be done with some moderation, otherwise it'll become the super-trick that let's you one shot anyone with one smack.

I think the first step to putting some rules together is to make it a Full Action, and one that you can't sneak around with Talents and what not. What I'm saying is, is that if you want to bayonet someone then that's ALL you do, just once. You're not firing as you stab someone afterall, you're stabbing them and then firing once the blade is lodged in them, in one mostly-smooth motion.

Next, it's fair to make the ranged attack auto-hit, but whether it hits at all depends on the melee attack (so if that misses, so does the shot fired). Should probably stick with single shot too, though I'm still up in the air. Whatever way you go, damage should remain variable (auto-max is just too much), and be resolved as a seperate hit.

Finally, there should be more of an element of disadvantage to this, which I'm thinking is adding Overheat to the attack, to represent the possibility of the barrel getting blocked and causing a blowback, super-heated plasma splashing back, getting caught in the explosive blast from Laser weapons, or the blast from a bolt. Whatever weapon it is, it always Overheats, and I guess maybe double the chances if it already Overheats. The shot against the target still goes through however.



#17 Cobramax76

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 09:14 PM

I agree Blood Pact.. I like your idea of a offset for it.  I would allow the stab-shoot to be the only attack that round and the shot would autohit unless the stab missed in which case yes..the shot will automiss as well as far as im concerned.  As for the Overheat" idea...yes that would work for your Plasma based weaponry but not with your Bolt/Sp etc..types..HOWEVER...you were spot on when it came to the idea of "blowback"..just not far enough with it.

1) The "blowback" effect is perfectly vialble and actually quite realistic ( you dont actually want to go up to someone and put the gun right up against them flush ( totally enclosing the barrel opening with their body ) because that WILL result in a catastrophic weapon failure ( IE it will basically blow up in your face when the sudden extreme pressure causes the bolt/firing mechanism in the upper reciever to fail ) 

In game terms this is easily expressed as the the shooter automatically takes the damage of however many rounds they tried firing ( worse for semi-auto which is the MOST id allow fired at last half of a round) in addition to potentially blowing up however many were left in the clip as well ( or causing some sort of sympathetic resonant frequency feedback into the charge pack causing it to detonate ) in the case of Las weapons etc...

All in all a VERY appealing and realistic way to handle the idea..I applaud your ingenuity and grasp of the situation mentioned.



#18 jpomz

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 05:54 AM

 I would only allow this to be done with weapons with stocks. That means no bolters, pistols, or heavy weapons. And maybe the next round if you're using an SP weapon you have to unclog the barrel.



#19 Cobramax76

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 09:26 AM

Agreed there totally Jpomz.  Thanks for pointing out that particular ( i forgot...oops...lol  )



#20 Blood Pact

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 04:47 PM

Cobramax76 said:

I agree Blood Pact.. I like your idea of a offset for it.  I would allow the stab-shoot to be the only attack that round and the shot would autohit unless the stab missed in which case yes..the shot will automiss as well as far as im concerned.  As for the Overheat" idea...yes that would work for your Plasma based weaponry but not with your Bolt/Sp etc..types..HOWEVER...you were spot on when it came to the idea of "blowback"..just not far enough with it.

Yes, I know how blowback works, that was one of the things in my mind when I was typing up my suggestion.

Overheat is a simple way to model the overall danger of such a trick without writing up whole new rules for it though, that's an important thing to remember. Making up stuff on your own doesn't always have to be new from the ground up, playing within the existing rules of the system keeps things from getting overcomplicated and bogged down.

Now, to the matter at hand, automatically taking damage from the weapon is just too much. The end of the barrel isn't always going to be flush with the target's body (the bayonet could get caught on a rip), someone with sufficient strength could pull it off with a carbine, and so on. It's best to just keep it allowable for basic weapons only and, as I said before, just have them all provide a risk of Overheat to represent the myriad ways a rouns fired from any weapon could backfire against the wielder.

You make too many drawbacks and you'll suck all the fun of putting a knife on your gun so you can stab while you shoot!

...Dawg.






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