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Foreshadowing to terrible times


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#1 TheKingOfBlades

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 08:15 AM

So everything battlelore is apart of ffg's holiday sale even the stuff the ffg made in house is apart of the sale. That could only mean one of two things. The game is getting a second edition or and this option is much more likely the game is dead.

These are terrible times indeed



#2 IraShaine1972

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 09:35 AM

Looks like the game is being put to bed to me.  I realize that FFG is a business first and foremost but I cant see Battlelore being such a low selling property as to just sort of stick a fork in it.  In all the years I have been gaming I gotta say that Battlelore has been one of the games that has had the most promise that has ever come along and has gotten the worst support from both companies that marketed it.  Just sad.  Its funny because the C&C line itself seems pretty healthy.  Still fairly regular releases from GMT and DoW (regular for them anyways).

 

Gotta say that FFGs move towards new splash game releases and less to no support for older games has really started keeping me away from anything new.

It doesnt seem to me that FFG has much interest in persuing the potential for games like BoW either at this point.

Bleah FFG.



#3 blumax1981

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 05:39 AM

I think FFG is laying this version of Battlelore to rest, I purchased the initial game when it first came out due to the promise of new races (Elves and Undead were my hope). I see the Westeros line as the proverbial second edition of Battlelore from FFG. It is my hope that Mr. Borg’s masterpiece will be picked up by yet another company and be able to meet its full potential. This is the dream of this old man…



#4 TheKingOfBlades

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 06:07 AM

If this game does get picked up by another company I would really enjoy seeing GMT games getting. I know this will never happen but this would be my ideal company to handle this game.

The two main reasons I would want GMT to take it over is because 1) the p500 system. As long as they get enough preorders for a game system they will continue to support it. 2) They would turn it into a block game.

I know a lot of people would rage at the idea of this game losing its minis for blocks but in my gaming experience blocks are far superior to minis. At first I was hesitant to pick up C&C Ancients because of the blocks but after playing it I discovered they work very well.

I prefer blocks to minis for many reasons:

1) much easier to store

2) much easier to set up and put away again. Although I really enjoy battlelore setting up a game of call to arms can take a very long time if you have to search through many different storage cases to find all the pieces you need.

3) I know people love their minis but I prefer the blocks for their abstract visual effect. With minis when I see a unit of 4 soldiers it fells like there is only 4 soldiers in that unit. But when I have 4 blocks it is much easier to imagine that you have a large unit of soldiers. Also to me it just looks awesome when you have a wall of blocks ready to smash into another wall of blocks.

4) Blocks are a ton cheaper. For the $40 that code of chivalry cost we got 42 miniatures. For that same price we probably could have gotten 150 blocks.



#5 IraShaine1972

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 12:40 PM

TheKingOfBlades said:

If this game does get picked up by another company I would really enjoy seeing GMT games getting. I know this will never happen but this would be my ideal company to handle this game.

The two main reasons I would want GMT to take it over is because 1) the p500 system. As long as they get enough preorders for a game system they will continue to support it. 2) They would turn it into a block game.

I know a lot of people would rage at the idea of this game losing its minis for blocks but in my gaming experience blocks are far superior to minis. At first I was hesitant to pick up C&C Ancients because of the blocks but after playing it I discovered they work very well.

I prefer blocks to minis for many reasons:

1) much easier to store

2) much easier to set up and put away again. Although I really enjoy battlelore setting up a game of call to arms can take a very long time if you have to search through many different storage cases to find all the pieces you need.

3) I know people love their minis but I prefer the blocks for their abstract visual effect. With minis when I see a unit of 4 soldiers it fells like there is only 4 soldiers in that unit. But when I have 4 blocks it is much easier to imagine that you have a large unit of soldiers. Also to me it just looks awesome when you have a wall of blocks ready to smash into another wall of blocks.

4) Blocks are a ton cheaper. For the $40 that code of chivalry cost we got 42 miniatures. For that same price we probably could have gotten 150 blocks.

 

GMT being the home of C&C that would be cool.  I gotta agree as well I love C&C and own every title.  I love the blocks.  For some reason they lend a sophistication to the game in my mind for some reason.  Maybe its just me.  If Battlelore went blocks that would be great.  Anybody out there ever play Wizard Kings?  Great game.  More of a Stratego type but still tactical and blacks and fantasy and you get like 6 armies in the game. 

 

All that being said I dont see alot of major support going towards Battles of Westeros at this point either.  In fact my initial notion was the FFG as a whole tend to let drop products that dont meet a certain level of sales.  I dont know that for sure but it sure seems that way more and more.  The only problem is they tend to alienate fans that they may have indicated big things for certain games and then never deliver (like BoW).  Those fans are still there waiting.  In the meantime FFG is out trying to get new fans with one or 2 new games every single month and pushing out left and right for new products that sell well and are inexpensive to manufacture (LCGs, any 40k RPG book so on..).

Thats the things that has tended to turn me off.  Sure we have gotten 2 new titles for Twilight Impirium (I never really expected that, because the game is so beafy already) but where is support for Battlelore and Tide of Iron and Descent(we already know where that is going and I would bet money we wont see much in the way of expansions like with Descent 1) and so forth.  FFG really seems to have moved to a one shot game company rather than a company that produces expanded systems.

Just sad that they took a game like BL and just took it out back and put a round in the back of the head.

oh well.



#6 kilrah

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 10:23 PM

 Personally when Battlelore looses the minis it would loose me as well. Lots of the appeal for me IS the minis. No interest at all for a block game. In fact, I'd rather pay twice the current price and keep the game as is.



#7 Old Dwarf

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 12:31 AM

It's Dead...that was my first thought in looking over the FFG Sale with all the BL stuff(right up there with the $25 Conan).As noted never has a game promised so much & then couldn't deliver.

The Block Game might work,if it offered different races & you could always subsitute Figs.for the blocks  we play a lot of our Block Games like that.

 

OD


A Dwarf in Winter


#8 TheKingOfBlades

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 05:44 AM

Old Dwarf said:

It's Dead...that was my first thought in looking over the FFG Sale with all the BL stuff(right up there with the $25 Conan).As noted never has a game promised so much & then couldn't deliver.

The Block Game might work,if it offered different races & you could always subsitute Figs.for the blocks  we play a lot of our Block Games like that.

 

OD

One of the nice things about a block game is how much content you can get in a single expansion. If battlelore was turned into a block game (it's never going to happen but it's still a nice idea) we could probably get everything that has ever been released for dwarves and goblins in a single expansion for about $60  and then after that we would be seeing complete new races in every expansion after that.



#9 IraShaine1972

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 02:32 PM

Old Dwarf said:

It's Dead...that was my first thought in looking over the FFG Sale with all the BL stuff(right up there with the $25 Conan).As noted never has a game promised so much & then couldn't deliver.

The Block Game might work,if it offered different races & you could always subsitute Figs.for the blocks  we play a lot of our Block Games like that.

 

OD

 

Conan was produced by Nexus and only distributed by FFG.  Nexus went belly up so thats not really FFGs deal.  However FFG owns Battlelore so any decision to end support and wave bye bye is 100% their choice.  I think it all comes down to how well a game does.  So it could be doing well but not well enough.  FFG deams the fans of BL to not be significant enough to care about.  Essentially it comes down to more lemmings jumping of the ooh aah of each churned out new game week after week then the number of people buying BL expansions.

We are just wallets to empty not fans to please.

Thats why I am much less of a fan then I was even a year ago of FFG.



#10 Boromir_and_kermit

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 01:00 PM

Yes, it sadly doesn't bode well.

I have emailed FFG to ask for some explanation of what is going on, but I'm sure I will get the standard "There is nothing to announce" email fob off, that we usually get.

A lot of uncertainty and questions would be put to rest with a simple post from FFG. Why they don't do this, I have no idea. All they do is garner ill will by remaining silent throughout. It is intensely frustrating to see such a rich game just sitting in limbo like this.

I feel terribly bad for Richard who has obviously put a lot of work into the game, only to see it end up in limbo in the hands of FFG.

Yes, we all know there are issues reprinting the base set. So put together a second edition base set with fewer models ala Battles of Westeros - they can do that (even with new sculpts, art, licensing fees etc... they were able to put together BOW - why not another Battlelore?)

Why don't they do this? They choose not to.

So FFG, please just come out and tell us what the deal is, as clearly the situation has changed.



#11 skolo

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 08:44 PM

so.. can anybody answer those questions

1. why DOW decided to give BL to FFG? money only?

2. was that only for FFG to be able to produce BoW ?

Poor decision to lunch separate system. They should stick with main BL and prepare addons for Game of Thrones. Main box would be saved and they would new if people are interested in GoT system. Hey! They could even make StarWars addons with minis, rules etc.

3. great question - what will happen now?

- BL dead, BL 2nd, BL sold to "X", sold back to DOW? (possible?)

Its hard for me even to think about it, how this great game was fukced by FFG here.

 

Maybe I`m wrong, maybe there is going to be big BOOM and 2nd edition is in plans?..

 

 

 



#12 caradoc

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 09:39 PM

 While I don't think that being in the sales is necessarily an indication that it's dead, I do suspect this is the case.

 

I posted this earlier on BGG in response to a similar discussion:

 

Yeah - I agree - FFG could be a lot more transparent with some of their game lines.

I understand they took a lot of flak over Starcraft and other games (Gears of War for example), and that they likely managed to achieve quite a lot of well timed publicity with late announcements (nothing worse I suppose than a game taking a long time to come out and the potential fan base tiring of it prior to its release).

However, the current model of not announcing anything upfront seems to be garnering FFG some ill-will from the very people who could be out their proselytizing in their favour.

By not being particularly forthcoming with the future of Battlelore - a game which is built around it's potential for expandibility, a game which excites it's fans with what the game could be FFG are pissing off a core group of die hard fans - burning them out with what looks like a long and slow death rattle. These are the people who write rave reviews, who keep the flame burning with creative content online, who go out and podcast about the game and so forth. None of these things is supported or rewarded.

I personally don't think FFG owe us anything - when all's said and done they're a business and need to make business decisions.

However, I am losing my interest in Battlelore, and in my opinion that FFG is a company that could represent the game well. As a something of a hybrid of board and table top games Battlelore always carried with it a huge potential for expandability. Borg's system could accommodate a myriad of fantastic potential, in my opinion. However, such a game needs a direction - often this is channelled through the setting - but FFG absolutely fail in every respect to demonstrate they have any vision for the direction the line could take.

DoW hinted at this - and perhaps this played against them as well with the delay of Heroes - but the suggestion of new races, new Lore, new heroes, new creatures and so forth caught the imagination and of many of us. Battlelore was a great game with potential, and with the hints of these things to come it had a direction and a future - fans were provided the opportunity to create content for the game as well. Of course - DoW got rid of the game for whatever reason, partly I think due to fan reactions to some of their releases, partly as they said at the time that they had trouble supporting it as well as the other games they produce (giving it the time it deserves or whatever).

So far FFG has demonstrated that it has no vision for the future of Battlelore, as such the game has no direction, the status of the game is in limbo, fan created material is totally disregarded (the Raven, Scenario builder etc) and core fans of the game are getting annoyed. So while FFG don't owe me anything, I am still frustrated at the way they are handling a game I love.

Shame really. I have been looking at Song of Blades and Heroes, Fury and other games to get into instead. I am willing to support Battlelore, but as it stands I am looking elsewhere.

Cheers,

Giles.



#13 Boromir_and_kermit

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 10:21 PM

I have emailed FFG, I suggest we all do the same. Hopefully, if there are enough of us asking the same question, we might get some sort of definitive answer as they clearly don't read these forums.



#14 skolo

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 08:05 AM

FGG, give the rights to BL forum readers. They will do better then you!



#15 gheintze

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 11:28 AM

Boromir_and_kermit said:

I have emailed FFG, I suggest we all do the same. Hopefully, if there are enough of us asking the same question, we might get some sort of definitive answer as they clearly don't read these forums.

Below is my email and their response.  Pretty much what I expected.  I have given up on BattleLore; I think that FFG already has...

Geoff

Geoff,

 


Thanks for your interest in our BatteLore product line.  Please be aware that I can't comment on what may or may not be in development regarding the product line in question.  Please note that when and if we announce something, it will be on our web site.  So keep you eyes there and stay tuned.  Thank you for understanding.

 

 

Regards,


Kalar Komarec
Customer Service Associate
Fantasy Flight Games Customer Service Team
customerservice@fantasyflightgames.com


On Nov 27, 2011, at 12:54 PM, <heintzelman@alumni.duke.edu> <heintzelman@alumni.duke.edu> wrote:


Message from:
Geoff Heintzelman


E-mail:
heintzelman@alumni.duke.edu


Message:
Would you be willing to share with the fans some information about the future of BattleLore?

All signs indicate that you have given up on the system, but there has been no definitive word from FFG. Will you make a 2nd edition of BattleLore? Are there more "BattleLore" games in the works (similar to Battles of Westeros? Have you killed base "BattleLore" to concentrate on Battles of Westeros? Would you consider selling the BattleLore name to someone else so the system can receive the treatment it deserves?

There are so many possibilities for BattleLore -- a campaign system, more expansions, a campaign world, rpg, etc... It''s a shame to not have more news about it.

When I see what Days of Wonder has accomplished with Memoir''44 (online game, scenario builder, fan support), I can only imagine what could happen for BattleLore. The potential for so much creativity is there.

But regardless of your decision, it would be nice for the fans of BattleLore to know what your plans for this great game may be.

Thank you,

Geoff Heintzelman

 

 

 

 



#16 Boromir_and_kermit

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 08:14 PM

Thanks Geoff,

Here is my latest reply. I have emailed them quite a few times over the last few months. They are unwilling to share. I can understand that Kalar would be put in an awkward situation here, but serious, they need to let us know as all not saying is doing is frustrating their fans.

EMAIL MESSAGE

Ben,

Thanks for your interest in our BattleLore product line. As you know, I can't comment what may or may not be in the pipe work for the product line. Al I can say is that if and when we have an announcement we will post it on our web site.


Regards,

Kalar Komarec
Customer Service Associate
Fantasy Flight Games Customer Service Team
customerservice@fantasyflightgames.com

On Nov 25, 2011, at 4:57 PM, <ben.boersma@gmail.com> <ben.boersma@gmail.com> wrote:


Message from:
Ben Boersma


E-mail:
ben.boersma@gmail.com


Message:
G''day,

There is a lot of Battlelore stuff up for very low prices on the FFG sale and it appears as though you are clearing out your stock.

Can you please let us know if Battlelore has now come to a close?
If so are you looking at revising it (ala Descent) and relaunching at some stage, selling it to another company or nothing at all.

It seems such a shame to see a game with such potential just die out. I hope that FFG have a plan for it.

I know you will probably just reply with "We have no comment to make", but at this point, it would be better to just declare it dead or tell us that its getting revised/sold etc...

There are a lot of people that really want it to succeed. Please let us know what is going on.

Cheers,
Ben.
 



#17 Mighty Martin

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 02:54 AM

 I kinda think that FFG only bought the greatest table top war game of all time, to **** its potentional for their own version of the game "Battles of Westeros" they even used the high success of BL to promote it and stuck the BL logo on the box. It hasn't been supported since its move from DOW to FFG and the few token products that was released had a high sale price to even put off the existing players. They even made a half hearted attempt to cover this up by the sale of old stock (French Copies) to the english speaking market.  In all, the only reason FFG bought BL was to kill it. . . . . . . .



#18 Dresden

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 03:46 AM

Mighty Martin said:

 I kinda think that FFG only bought the greatest table top war game of all time, to **** its potentional for their own version of the game "Battles of Westeros" they even used the high success of BL to promote it and stuck the BL logo on the box. It hasn't been supported since its move from DOW to FFG and the few token products that was released had a high sale price to even put off the existing players. They even made a half hearted attempt to cover this up by the sale of old stock (French Copies) to the english speaking market.  In all, the only reason FFG bought BL was to kill it. . . . . . . .

I think using **** as a metaphor for discontinuing a game line is crass, and painting FFG as a malicious villain has done the Battlelore line far more harm than good. Christian Petersen admitted in this interview that the classic Battlelore base set was essentially "non-manufacturable," and that this came as a surprise to FFG. As for the "half-hearted" attempt to make more copies of the base set available for players by translating the french copies, there are still unsold copies of this still available at discounted prices.

If retailers can't sell out of the old core set (which is an insane value for the price), how is FFG supposed to justify creating a "new" core set (which, even if it had half the content of the previous core set would still sport a price tag of $75-$80)?

I had considered buying the repurposed french edition myself (I had played Battlelore before, and enjoyed it), but the constant indignant Battlelore-related comments in Battles of Westeros posts had turned me off of the game entirely.

I appreciate the level of frustration you all must feel: you love a game, and the publisher of that game has been showing little-to-no support, and has been very silent about the future of the game. I got into Monsterpocalypse pretty heavily, and its the same story with that game: no new product for the game has been released in a long time, and the publisher won't comment on any future support.

It all boils down to the same thing: FFG is a business, and they need to make a profit. Based on the availability of the french edition, the "non-manufacturable" nature of the core set, and the classic expansions being sold in the holiday sale, it doesn't seem like classic Battlelore is a profitable line.

Will FFG come out and say that they're killing Battlelore forever? Of course not, a) because that would damage their relationship with distributors and retailers, who are still carrying Battlelore stock, and b) because it may not be true; at some point in the future, FFG may decide to invest in a "second edition," if they think the market can bear it, and they're confident it won't cannibalize the sale of their other products.

It sucks, I get it. But painting FFG as some malevolent, game-killing monster helps nobody.

My two cents.



#19 Mighty Martin

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 06:53 AM

 I think Dresden, you have hit the nail right on its head, when you mention that FFG is a business your 100% right and as a business it was a good tactical move for them - buying a game and revamping it into a new product to sell in a whole new line . . . be interesting to see if they see a profit in a reprint of their revamped battlelore game "BOW". Im sure they will. Businesses will always go for the highest profit margin they can make, certainly over making a slightly smaller profit that will support a product they promised to support. As a business I doubt they would have bought BL on a whim, research and reprint costs would have been taken into account before they took move to buy BL and for this reason Im convinced it was bought to kill it . . . .  . and push forward a whole new revamped line, maybe even for legal reasons. My opinion at least.

 

I'm actually not that bothered about the product BL coming to a end, I think the amount that has been released for it has been enough now, shame not enough effort on DOW and FFG wasn't put into some more races for the game, however I think there is enough fan based stuff around to cover this and getting mini's shouldn't be a problem. The game is perfect in so many ways from its simplicity to its tactical complexity and is a tough game to restyle in a better way, I doubt it will ever be achieved . . . . .

 



#20 skolo

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 09:03 AM

so say we all  

 

 

thank God I have all the products and even my friends bought a core set after playing 1 (ONE!) time. we can do epic now :)

i dont care about FFG,

 

its all in our heart right?






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