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Dreadfort +Winterfell Castle + Bolton Refugee


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#1 Flintacs

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 07:08 PM

If I have Winterfell Castle in play giving +1 to Stark characters and I'm playing Bolton Refugee then can I trigger the Dreadfort ability:

Response: After you play or take control of a House Bolton character with STR 3 or higher, draw 1 card?



#2 Underworld40k

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 11:55 PM

 I would say no as a gut reaction, BUT looking at the faq i would hesitantly say yes as the response triggers after the passive from winterfell if im reading it right.



#3 -Istaril

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 01:09 AM

The terminology you're looking for isn't so much "passive" as "constant"; Winterfell Castle has a constant effect on the game, and there is no time where it's not giving your characters the +1 str. So while the ability doesn't require activation, it's still not being resolved in Step 4.

A passive ability is something like the hound's "After a character's STR is lowered, return The Hound to his owner's hand." which happens in Step 4 (Passives)

I asked a similar question a while back; http://www.fantasyfl...4&efidt=556249. Anyway, the short version is that yes, you can trigger your Dreadfort.

 

 



#4 ktom

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 01:23 AM

Comes down to this: Since Dreadfort does not say "printed STR," what matters is the modified STR of the character when you trigger Dreadfort, not the unmodified STR of the character as it leaves your hand.



#5 Bolzano

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 08:52 AM

I disagree with the conclusion here, because the timing of checking conditions for trigerring a Response does not work this way.

The conditions are not checked at the time when you want to trigger the Response.

Instead, at any time when you COULD trigger later on Step 5) the Response, it opens a Response "gate" that will only close at Step 6) and that you can use in Step 5) to play your Response (see FAQ page 15 "Response Opportunities")

This means that if you play a 3 STR Bolton character and that a passive ability reduces his STR to 2, then you could still trigger Dreadfort.

I think it's pretty clear how it works with passives. So if a passive would give Bolton Refugee +1 STR, the Dreadfort cannot be triggered.

 

 

But what of constant effects (Winds of Winter, Winterfell...)? I guess it all depends on the timing of "playing" a Bolton character...

1) Initiating, paying the cost

2) Save/cancel effect (although I cannot think of any right now)

3) Resolve the effect : my character successfully enters play and get the benefits of constant effects.

The wording of many cancel effects (ie "cancel an effect just triggered / an event just played") suggests that a card is played at Step 1) but enters play at step 3). And so at the time when you play (Step 1)) the Bolton Refugee, you are paying for it and it does not have +1 STR before Step 3). So the Response "gate" does not open.

At Step3) he gets +1 STR but you are not playing it. So even if at Step 5) all the conditions are met for the Dreadfort, the have never been met at the same time and a gate for triggering the Response have never been opened.



#6 ktom

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 09:25 AM

Bolzano said:

The wording of many cancel effects (ie "cancel an effect just triggered / an event just played") suggests that a card is played at Step 1) but enters play at step 3). And so at the time when you play (Step 1)) the Bolton Refugee, you are paying for it and it does not have +1 STR before Step 3). So the Response "gate" does not open.

At Step3) he gets +1 STR but you are not playing it. So even if at Step 5) all the conditions are met for the Dreadfort, the have never been met at the same time and a gate for triggering the Response have never been opened.

If you are going to use this reasoning, the Dreadfort will NEVER be met when you play a character because when you "play" the character in Step 1 it has no effective STR at all. Characters do not have effective STR before they enter play, only printed STR. And by the time they enter play in Step 3 (and thus have an effective STR, including their printed STR and any applicable modifiers), "you are not playing it."

~ So I guess Dreadfort is worthless when you play characters from your hand. Good thing it has that "take control" caveat, or it would never work at all.

Seriously, the STR check is always done at the time an effect actually looks at the STR. For example, let's say you play Game of Cyvasse and kneel Beseiger's of Dorne (STR 4). I kneel CS-Melisandre (STR 4 while standing, STR 3 while kneeling becuase of the "+1 to Asshai while standing" ability). Do you "win" 4-3, or do we tie, 4-4? The ruling from FFG is that you win, 4-3, because the STR is counted when you need to know the STR - ie, when you get to the "then" part, not when you initiate the event and kneel the characters.

For Dreadfort, you don't need to know the STR until the Response play restrictions are checked (ie, when you initiate The Dreadfort), so that is when it is counted.

If you don't believe me, feel free to send it to Nate.



#7 Bolzano

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 10:16 AM

1) In Step 1) I think the character does have a STR, the very same way he has a Title, a cost, Traits and type. Otherwise we couldn't meet the play restriction of such things as "Put into play a Warship from your hand". Because out-of-play cards do not interact directly with the game does not mean that they don't have their characteristics - correct me if I'm wrong here.

2) If 1) is true, the Dreadfort just work as expected when we play cards.

3) You certainly count the STR when you trigger your Response or resolve your effect. But to trigger a Response you must have a Response opportunity. And this opportunity shows up only if you meet all the conditions at the same time. It does not open if you meet one condition today and another one yesterday. So you are right with this Melisandre/Game of Cyvasse example, but I think it is not related to my point.

 

I may indeed send it to Nate, but first I'd like to be sure there is no misunderstanding.

 

For information, here is the FAQ passage:

"You can think of opportunities as "gates"
that open up, allowing you to play specific
responses during an action window. The action
itself may open a "gate," and subsequent
responses and passive abilities executed within
the current action window may open additional
"gates." These opportunities (or "gates") stay
open until Step 6, when the action finally ends
and the action window closes."

In other words, when conditions are met, you are allowed to trigger the Response at a later time. At that later time, it is not written is the rules that you have to check the restriction a second time.



#8 Bomb

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 10:49 AM

If Threat from the North is out, and I play a printed 3 STR Bolton character, then you're suggesting that I'd be able to draw a card.

Also, then would Threat from the North not discard a 1 STR character as soon as it's played during marshaling?  Otherwise I should effectively be able to attach a Black Hatchling to Drogon as soon as Black Hatchling hits the table, no?



#9 Bolzano

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 11:29 AM

@Bomb: Yes that's what I'm suggesting with Threat from the North is out and you play a printed 3 STR character. For the same reason, when Khal Drogo enter play in challenge phase and your opponent have a Dragonpit, you can stand Killer of the Wounded because your Khal just got -1 STR when entering play but you did not play a 2 STR character whom STR has stayed constant. It may be more intuitive than using a STR your Bolton does not have when you play it to trigger the Dreadfort.

About Threat from the North discarding effect, I'm not sure why you think this passive effect is related to the topic. When the printed 1 STR character successfully enter play at step 3) of playing it, he also gets -1 STR from the plot. Then he is discarded by the "discard when your character reach 0 STR' passive effect at step 4) of action window.

So when Black Hatchling hits the table, he should become moribund or attach himself to Drogon depending what the first player will want to resolve firstly.

There is no such things as gates opening opportunities to trigger passives, it does not work the same way.



#10 ktom

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 11:52 AM

Bolzano said:

1) In Step 1) I think the character does have a STR, the very same way he has a Title, a cost, Traits and type. Otherwise we couldn't meet the play restriction of such things as "Put into play a Warship from your hand". Because out-of-play cards do not interact directly with the game does not mean that they don't have their characteristics - correct me if I'm wrong here.

Cards that are out-of-play only have/use those characteristics when an effect specifically looks at them. The rules for playing cards from your hand specifically references type, printed cost and House. The rules for unique specifically reference title when playing or putting cards into play. Certain reducers specifically reference trait. It is not the card that makes these things matter, it is the effect or mechanic you are initiating that makes these things matter.

 

That's what we're looking at with The Dreadfort. Playing the Bolton character from your hand didn't make any reference to STR, so its STR at that point doesn't matter. It is the RESPONSE that cares about the STR, so it is the card's STR at the point of initiating the Response that is queried.

Bolzano said:

"You can think of opportunities as "gates"

 

that open up, allowing you to play specific
responses during an action window. The action
itself may open a "gate," and subsequent
responses and passive abilities executed within
the current action window may open additional
"gates." These opportunities (or "gates") stay
open until Step 6, when the action finally ends
and the action window closes."

In other words, when conditions are met, you are allowed to trigger the Response at a later time. At that later time, it is not written is the rules that you have to check the restriction a second time.

No, but it is written in the rules that you must check the play restrictions of an effect (including Responses) when you trigger that effect. Having the appropriate "gate" for a Response is a play restriction of the Response. So it's not that the "gate" opens and you look to see what can initiate; it is that when you go to initiate the Response, you check to see if the appropriate gate is open. 

 

That's what it comes down to: the rules for initiating an effect say that you look at the play restrictions for initiation when you trigger the effect. Because of that, it is the conditions at initiation of the Response, not the conditions at creation of the Response opportunity, that matters. Because that's when it is checked.

If it helps, think that when you play the character, an "after you play a character" gate opens, but the characteristics of that gate that matter (House Bolton, STR 3) are not checked (or even defined) until you actually trigger The Dreadfort. After all, there are a lot of other potential characteristics of that gate (House Stark, cost whatever, traits like "Army" or "Lord," depending on which character) that are not checked by the Response. If the gate that opens is "after a Stark, House Bolton, Army, STR 3, cost 2, MIL icon, INT icon character is played," hasn't The Dreadfort NOT matched the entire Response gate by only referring to 1 trait and the STR? Someone could argue the point, anyway.

 

But, you don't have to take my word for it if I haven't convinced you. Send it to Nate. The question has been asked and answered may times for many different card interactions, so I know this is the right interpretation. For example, there was Drogon from the Five Kings Edition ("Response: After a character comes into play during the challenge phase,choose and kneel a character with lower STR then the character that just entered play") and the Ambush Hatchlings - which became dupes. If you Ambushed in The Black Hatchling (2 STR), you effectively never had a target because by the time you could trigger Drogon's Response, the Black Hatchling was a dupe - with no STR.



#11 ktom

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 12:01 PM

Bolzano said:

It may be more intuitive than using a STR your Bolton does not have when you play it to trigger the Dreadfort.
Again, this is looking at the situation from the wrong end. It's more about using the STR your Bolton actually has at the moment you trigger the Dreadfort.

Bolzano said:

So when Black Hatchling hits the table, he should become moribund or attach himself to Drogon depending what the first player will want to resolve firstly.
Note that "kill this character at 0" and "attach this character as a dupe" do not actually conflict, so they happen at the same time without any input from the First Player. The dupe attaches to Drogon moribund, so it leaves play in Step 6.

You check STR when an effect or rule asks you what the STR is.



#12 Ratatoskr

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 01:02 PM

ktom said:

 

You check STR when an effect or rule asks you what the STR is.

There was a lengthy discussion about these very issues (albeit emerging from a very different starting point) a while back in this thread. What I found the most convincing argument was ktom's example that, if Bolzano's interpretation was correct, you should be able to trigger Castellan of the Rock after a dupe was played on a unique Lanni character.



#13 Bolzano

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 06:38 AM

When you play a dupe, it does not become a dupe when he enters play - since you play it as a dupe.

So my interpretation does  not contradict the fact that playing a dupe does not trigger Castellan of the Rock.

It is possible, as ktom says, that opening a gate for the Response opportunity is just one play restriction. But it still remains true that you have to open that gate, and it can only be open in Step 1) when you play a 3 STR char. In Step 3) the Bolton may have 3 STR (base or from constant effect) but you are no longer playing it (since save/cancel effect occuring in Step 2) can be triggered after a card "has just been played" (in Step 1)).

The point where I'm not convinced by ktom is when he says when the gates creates the play restriction of the Response has not been checked. By reading the FAQ I would think the contrary, but the ruling is vague enough so ktom could also have the right of it.

 

About Drogon 5K I think it is not related to the topic since the gate for his Response opens when a character enters play and the STR comes in later (not in the play restrictions)



#14 ktom

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 09:42 AM

Bolzano said:

The point where I'm not convinced by ktom is when he says when the gates creates the play restriction of the Response has not been checked. By reading the FAQ I would think the contrary, but the ruling is vague enough so ktom could also have the right of it.

From pg. 15-16 of the FAQ:

 

For the initiation stage of any player action, a
player must go through the following substeps,
in order. The first step is always revealing the
card or declaring the intent to use an ability.
Then:
a) Determine the cost (to either marshal the
card or pay for the card's effect) or costs (if
multiple costs are necessary for the intended
action).
b) Check play restrictions, including
verification of applicable targets.
c) Apply any penalties to the cost(s). (Any
effects that modify a penalty are applied to that
penalty before it becomes a part of the cost.)
d) Apply any other active modifiers (including
reducers) to the cost(s).
e) Pay the cost(s).
f) Marshal the card, or trigger the effect.
Choose targets (if applicable) and proceed to
step two.

 

So it's right there that play restrictions are checked as part of the initiation of the player action (unless you really want to mince words and argue that since Responses are not player actions, they must be sufficiently different to somehow be initiated in an as-yet unspecified and completely different way), the play restrictions are checked. So the only way for the larger aspect of your "Response gate is created as is and is therefore unchangeable" argument to work is for the "after X happens..." part of the Response text to not be a play restriction.

Bolzano said:

About Drogon 5K I think it is not related to the topic since the gate for his Response opens when a character enters play and the STR comes in later (not in the play restrictions)

They're all play restrictions. The type of "gate" that is open, the targets that can be legally chosen, etc. They are all classified as play restrictions.

 

 

But, I doubt we're going to settle this here. Send it to Nate.



#15 Bolzano

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 10:50 AM

Nate French has written:

"The character's STR is 2 when it is played, and enters play as a STR 2 character (step 3).

[...] You must still respond to the original action (playing a STR 2 character), so the Dreadfort could not be triggered."

 

Question submitted:

1- Conditions to initiate a Response.
I have Winterfell Castle in play (continuous +1 STR to my Starks) and I play a Bolton Refugee : can I draw with the Dreadfort?
For sure, when I trigger the Response, my character is 3 STR and he has just been played, though I have never actually played a 3 STR character.
However, from the FAQ, meeting the conditions to trigger a Response open a gate that you can use as a Response opportunity in Step 5). So there are two timing possible in this framework action (playing the Bolton Refugee)

1) Action is initiated, cost is paid - The Bolton Refugee has STR 2 and I'm playing it. So it does not yet open a Response opportunity "gate"

2) Save / cancel - there are usually worderd "After XXX has just been played" which would confirm we play the card in Step 1) and in enters play in Step 3).

3) Action is executed : character enters play and now have 3 STR.

4) Passives

5) Responses : My Bolton Refugee is now 3 STR but I'm not playing it, so still no gate for Response opportunity open, even if other conditions for triggering the Response are met. I won't draw with Dreadfort.

6) End of framework action.

Or :

1) Action is initiated, cost is paid - The Bolton Refugee has STR 2 and I'm playing it. I don't care about such rule as opening a Response opportunity "gate" : it's just meant to explain how it works and should be applied at step 4)

2) Save / cancel

3) Action is executed : character enters play and now have 3 STR.

4) Passives

5) Responses : My Bolton Refugee is now 3 STR and I've just played it, so there is Response opportunity for Dreadfort. I draw 1 card.

6) End of framework action.

 

 



#16 Bomb

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 02:12 AM

Based on that, then that also means gained Traits upon entering play should also not be considered when playing responses for say, Samwell Tarly's response to a Raven card being played where you can draw 2 cards.

Can anyone think of other scenarios that should now not be possible based on Bolzano's post?



#17 Staton

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 02:30 AM

 What cards gain the Raven trait upon entering play? Aren't all Ravens just printed ravens?



#18 Bomb

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 02:33 AM

Staton said:

 

 What cards gain the Raven trait upon entering play? Aren't all Ravens just printed ravens?

 

 

I think I figured out how it was possible to give a card the Raven trait as a Response before Samwell Tarly's kicks off.  Just can't think of it at the moment.

For the point of this topic though, I just wanted to point out that if it were possible, it should not allow Samwell Tarly's response to kick in because of Bolzano's post from Nate/Damon.



#19 Ratatoskr

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 02:34 AM

Staton said:

 What cards gain the Raven trait upon entering play? Aren't all Ravens just printed ravens?

Campfire Mime entering play while you have a Carrion Bird in play, for example. IIRC, it was ruled previously that you could trigger Samwell's response off that. I guess that ruling's shot now. I linked to the thread this was discussed in above.



#20 Bomb

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 02:41 AM

Ratatoskr said:

 

Campfire Mime entering play while you have a Carrion Bird in play, for example. IIRC, it was ruled previously that you could trigger Samwell's response off that. I guess that ruling's shot now. I linked to the thread this was discussed in above.

That must have been the scenario I couldn't put my finger on.  There may be others that are possible.






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