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For Each - Wretch (9/35) question


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#1 Nephilim

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 01:40 PM

Basicly how does this card work?

- 'for each' means for every model on the board, do things individually.
- manual says you can choose which model first.

First condition:
- COG =< 4 health within 3 movement

otherwise condition:
- move 2 areas to nearest COG not in cover.

- if no wretches OR all COG's in cover, draw new AI card.

Situation is this: 1 Wretch is within the first condition. 1 wretch is not within the first condition AND not within the 'otherwise' condition.
The card states in that situation: draw a new AI card.

Can you choose that model to go first and then draw a new AI card and thus can't continue with the other Wretch?



#2 Dam

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 09:01 PM

Nephilim said:

Basicly how does this card work?

- 'for each' means for every model on the board, do things individually.
- manual says you can choose which model first.

First condition:
- COG =< 4 health within 3 movement

otherwise condition:
- move 2 areas to nearest COG not in cover.

- if no wretches OR all COG's in cover, draw new AI card.

Situation is this: 1 Wretch is within the first condition. 1 wretch is not within the first condition AND not within the 'otherwise' condition.
The card states in that situation: draw a new AI card.

Can you choose that model to go first and then draw a new AI card and thus can't continue with the other Wretch?

Interesting. I would say you aren't able skip to the next AI card since even if the second Wretch doesn't move, you still have the other Wretch for which top part of the card works for. As to what the other Wretch does, I'd say it stays put. Like getting spawn 2 Wretch at each emergence hole within 4 does nothing if no holes are open within 4.


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#3 starman

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 12:14 AM

Nephilim said:

Basicly how does this card work?

- 'for each' means for every model on the board, do things individually.
- manual says you can choose which model first.

First condition:
- COG =< 4 health within 3 movement

otherwise condition:
- move 2 areas to nearest COG not in cover.

- if no wretches OR all COG's in cover, draw new AI card.

Situation is this: 1 Wretch is within the first condition. 1 wretch is not within the first condition AND not within the 'otherwise' condition.
The card states in that situation: draw a new AI card.

Can you choose that model to go first and then draw a new AI card and thus can't continue with the other Wretch?

IMO only apply the otherwise if no wretches orno cogs in cover even if some wretches can't follow the earlier options. The last uses wretches plural. At least one wretch negates the otherwise as would a COG out of cover , one of the conditions has to apply before any actions are taken. The for each would only apply to wretches not each model, unless it says for each locus which only appears on General AI cards.



#4 Bjbu

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 01:34 AM

That's interesting. The same situation happends to me yesterday.

I play the AI card 9/35 by drawing a new AI card, if no wretches are in play OR all cogs are in cover.

Otherwise when I would activate the wretch within 3 movement of a cog with 4 or less health, I would have to draw a new AI card - because of another wretch in play who qualifies neither for the restricted action (the wretch is far away), nor for the otherwise action (all cogs are in cover) - this new AI card could be another wretch card, so the wretch who was activated already could be activated again. And I think, this is not intended.

Maybe there is an error on the card 9/35 and the card should say: "If there is a COG not in cover with 4 or less health within 3 movement." Then the rest of the card 9/35 would make sense.



#5 Nephilim

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 03:00 AM

Well I think there is no mistake on the card it just creates an odd situation.
Normally all 'for each' cards have normal 'yes/no' conditions and then an extra condition if there are no locust of that type in play.

This particular card has a first condition and then in the 'otherwise' it has a new different condition. The extra text addresses correctly the 'else' for both conditions: no locust of that type OR all locust of that type in cover.

It's just the for each lets you choose a locust so if you take one that doesn't fit both conditions and thus have to pick a new AI card.

I don't know if there is something wrong, I just wanted to point out the consequences if you don't pay attention; it could be that you activate some wretch and then have to pick a new AI, potentially have to activate the same wretch.

I think it would be better that you check the bottom extra text first and then continue with the first condition presented on the card but the manual states it belongs to the 'otherwise' part of the card.



#6 FragMaster

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 05:31 AM

I had that situation yesterday and didn't know what to do. I believe that this question qualifies for the FAQ. Can anyone post it on the relevant thread or maybe even ask Corey about it? I don't have time to do it myself right now.



#7 Schummy

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 09:00 PM

My 2 cents:

I think the "If no wretches in play or all cog in cover" sentence is not part of the otherwise section (graphically, on the card, it's a little detached from the action you have to take in the otherwise section).

As  others pointed out, it's an extra condition that I think you may check first, for "for each" type cards, to determine if the card can be played. Wouldn't you check this condition first or would this extra condition belong to the otherwise section, the "for each" type card would be unplayable in case no locust of that type is in play. In fact, would the condition belong to the otherwise section, you can't apply it since you never check the "if" condition.

Take for example AI card #17/35 (the one used as example in the rules book at page 12). You can see that the extra condition is detached and that in the example the condition is resolved first without checking the "if" condition. If you pretend it belongs to the otherwise condition, since there are no boomers in play in the  example, you would never check the "if a cog figure is within 3 range" condition and so you technically couldn't apply the "otherwise" section, and you so would not draw a new AI card...

In the case reported by the OP, since the condition is true, you have to draw a new AI card skipping all other actions on the card itself (you don't check the "if" sentence for any wretch, so even the wretch fulfilling the "if" condition does nothing).

 

(Sorry if my probable bad English: it's not my native language...)

 



#8 willmanx

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 08:57 PM

As long as one wretch at least can do the card's action, you don't draw another IA card. My 2 cents.



#9 Nephilim

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 01:18 AM

I think the "If no wretches in play or all cog in cover" sentence is not part of the otherwise section (graphically, on the card, it's a little detached from the action you have to take in the otherwise section).

As others pointed out, it's an extra condition that I think you may check first, for "for each" type cards, to determine if the card can be played. Wouldn't you check this condition first or would this extra condition belong to the otherwise section, the "for each" type card would be unplayable in case no locust of that type is in play. In fact, would the condition belong to the otherwise section, you can't apply it since you never check the "if" condition.

Unfortunately not, but I agree that would make things easier to understand.

3. Otherwise Ability: If the restricted ability cannot be resolved, the player instead resolves this ability. The otherwise ability sometimes list criteria under which this card is discarded without effect and a new card is drawn. (p.11)

Really, the thing is just they make an extra - new - 'condition' in the Otherwise Ability. There isn't something wrong in the wording of the card because the extra criteria addresses also both 'else' cases.
This 'for each' card is special/unique in the way that it matters which Wretch you choose first.
I (OP) just want confirmation if that is intentional or not.



#10 FragMaster

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 09:43 PM

So any official answer to this? It's getting annoying. Everytime I see that card I feel like I'm playing it wrong.

Right now I just check if all COGs are in cover and if this is the case I draw a new AI card even if a Wretch could fulfill the first part of the text. I don't know if that was the intent though.

Anyone from FFG reading this?



#11 Nephilim

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 10:50 PM

Should have complaint earlier :-)

Just receved this in my mailbox:

You would only draw a new AI card if there are No wretches in play or if all COGs are in cover. In all other cases, you will resolve as much as possible from the card and not draw a new one.

I hope this answers your question!
-Corey Konieczka
VP of R&D
Fantasy Flight Games
 



#12 Bjbu

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 05:42 AM

You would only draw a new AI card if there are No wretches in play or if all COGs are in cover. In all other cases, you will resolve as much as possible from the card and not draw a new one.

Sorry. But this makes no sense to me, because there are no other cases.

Of course You have to draw a new AI card, if there are no Wretches in play. That is not the problem here.

So, what is the other case? If there is at least one COG figure not in cover, You could use the "Otherwise" action (if You can't use the first action) and move 2 areas toward this COG figure not in cover. But that is not to resolve "as-much-as-possible" from the card. That is resolving the card in the normal manner.

I got a mail from Corey too. But in my mail he just says: "Resolve as much as possible from the card and do not draw a new one." He didn't answer that You have to draw a new AI card if all COGs are in cover.

I will ask Corey again about this.



#13 FragMaster

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 08:59 PM

Please do ask with specific examples because I'm still not convinced that Corey answered exactly what we are talking about here.



#14 Terah

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 09:50 PM

Nephilim said:

3. Otherwise Ability: If the restricted ability cannot be resolved, the player instead resolves this ability. The otherwise ability sometimes list criteria under which this card is discarded without effect and a new card is drawn. (p.11)

This implies that if all COGs are in cover then no Locust will attack from card #9. Even though the discard criteria are further down the card and in a FOR EACH WRETCH... OTHERWISE the card is "discarded without effect".

Confusing layout. If we are meant to check to discard first and always then it should be at the top of the card and not in a conditional section.



#15 Bjbu

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 11:31 PM

In my opinion the AI card #9 is definitely wrong worded and it has to be re-produced with a different wording for the reprint of the game. It has to be an official errata.

That is, because the card cannot be played as it is and Corey gave us two different answers.

The first solution is, that the card should be read like the following:

Let the first action requirement as it is. Add "(if possible)" to the end of the 'Otherwise' text and delete the following words of the last sentence: "or all COG figures in cover".

First Action: "If a COG figure with 4 or less health is within 3 movemend, move into his area and then attack him."

Otherwise Action: "Move 2 areas toward the nearest COG figure not in cover (if possible)."

Last sentence: "If no Wretches in play draw a new AI card."

With this change of wording the player would resolve as much as possible from the card (like Corey answered to me), but he would not draw a new AI card, if all COGs are in cover. If there is a COG with 4 or less health within 3 movement of a Wretch, then this Wretch would move into the COG's area and attack the COG. If there is a Wretch who can't fulfill the first action requirements and all COGs are in cover, then this Wretch would just stay where it is. The player would not draw a new AI card.

The problem with this solution is: If really all COGs are in cover and not a single Wretch fulfills the first action requirement, then all Wretches would stay where they are, the player would not draw a new AI card and nothing would happen at all. I don't think that this is a good solution to handle an AI card.

The second solution is, that the card should be read like the following:

Add "and not in cover" to the end of the first action requirement.

First Action: "If a COG figure with 4 or less health is within 3 movement and not in cover, move into his area and then attack him."

Otherwise Action: "Move 2 areas toward the nearest COG figure not in cover."

Last sentence: "If no Wretches in play or all COG figures in cover, draw a new AI card."

With this change of wording the player cannot resolve as much as possible from the card. Because he would immediately draw a new AI card when all COGs are in cover (like Corey answered to FragMaster - see his first sentence of the answer). That is, because both the first action requirement and the 'Otherwise' text would have the wording "not in cover" and so You would end in the last sentence and would draw a new AI card.

The problem with this solution is: This AI card would be discarded very often (especially in a solo game with just 1 COG), because all COGs are often in cover. This would reduce the four Wretch AI cards to three and would reduce the number of actions of the Wretches.

But one solution has to be the correct one. Corey has to decide which one.

I sent Corey a mail.



#16 Advosan

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 03:43 AM

Imo the problem is solved if the active player first checks whether all COGs in cover or no wretches in play and draw a new card (the third tier of the card), then if he doesn t draw a new card check the 4 health-3 movement condition and apply for each wretch that this is possible (the first tier of the card), and finally apply the Otherwise (second tier of the card) to each wretch that this is possible and didn t move because of the tier 1 action.



#17 FragMaster

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 07:05 AM

Do we have an answer to this question yet? Anyone?



#18 willmanx

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 07:51 AM

Nephilim said:

Should have complaint earlier :-)

Just receved this in my mailbox:

You would only draw a new AI card if there are No wretches in play or if all COGs are in cover. In all other cases, you will resolve as much as possible from the card and not draw a new one.

I hope this answers your question!
-Corey Konieczka
VP of R&D
Fantasy Flight Games
 

 

official answer



#19 Bjbu

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 10:06 PM

FragMaster said:

Do we have an answer to this question yet? Anyone?

I sent Corey mails and he sent mails back to me, but unfortunately the problem is not resolved until now entirely.

But it seems that Corey wants to handle AI card #9 as follows:

(1) First check if there is at least one Wretch in play. If no, then draw a new AI card immediately. If yes, then go to (2).

(2) Check if all COG figures are in cover. If yes, then draw a new AI card immediately. If no, then go to (3).

(3) Resolve the card normally for each Wretch. That means: The first choice for a Wretch is to move into a 4 or less health COG figure's area within 3 movement and to attack him and the second choice is to move 2 areas toward the nearest COG figure not in cover.

Wish You all Merry Christmas and a happy New Year!



#20 Tromdial

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 06:01 AM

Yeah, I agree with the last post. I always play from the top of the card for each figurine that would trigger and continue to go down until the card has completely resolved what figurines it can.






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