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#1 Evrae

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 12:40 PM

I'm a huge fan of Fullmetal Alchemist so I decided to make an Alchemist class. It would have a separate supernatural system similar to the Creation and Destruction books of magic, but without the use of zeon. I was thinking of keeping the equivalent exchange idea (to gain something something of equal value must be paid) rule as a restriction.  I'll post alchemic rules when I think i've got them figured out and tested. 

 

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#2 Xamusel

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 02:22 PM

You, my good man/woman/whatever, are a genius!!

Do you mind if I use the Alchemist class for an option in my campaigns?



#3 F3nr1s

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 09:02 PM

 I also love Fullmetal Alchemist, but I think there a something wrong, because: I think your Alchemist looks more like an weird fighter (60% only on Combat, +30 MK, Innate Boni auf Attack, Block and Dodge) than a Novel, because Novel are allrounder and not all Alchemists are fighters.



#4 ElricOfMelnibone

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 09:24 PM

First, I'd like to point out there's already a topic with Homemade Classes, if you look around and it would be nice if all homebrewed classes ended-up in the same place.

 

Anyway, I find the idea very interesting, but as it is now, it looks a bit too strong. Just a quick comparison with the Freelancer should be enough to show that the Alchemist is invariably stronger. Also, the class you've rolled so far looks much more like a fighter class or at least mixed fighter class, than a Novel.

Now let's "dissect" the Alchemist class step by step:

Alchemy is a form of ritualistic magic with strong scientific-chemical ties, actually allowing to perform some forms of "magic" for anyone who has studied enough to perform the complex rituals. Under this aspect, if you think about it, it's very similar to Summoning in Anima. Summoning can be performed by those without the gift, all you have to do is study the complex rituals and learn how to perform them.

For Alchemy I'd suggest a similar Zeon-Based Gift-Free system. I'd make Alchemy rituals work as Summoning Onces (with time penalties applied, since only very strong alchemists can make circles in few seconds...always remember that the alchemists featured in Full Metal Alchemist are the top-notch alchemists of that world!). Hence increasing difficulties in the check should allow the Alchemist (who has to spend the Zeon as well), to perform a certain "spell". Spells accessible to Alchemy should be selected from around the paths and the number of rituals known to an Alchemist should be somewhat limited. Again, using Magic Level (Alchemy Level in this case) could be a very good solution, since it's a limited resource that allows an Alchemist to work no better and no worse than an average mage of the same level. For rituals I'd Roll Science+d100 (Open Rolls allowed as well as Fumbles). Difficulty of the check might be

Spell LevelXCasting LevelX2.

This formula has a difficulty range going from 4 (Level2 Spell cast on Base Level) to 640 (Level80 Spell cast on Arcane Level).

Of course Alchemy to work need something "equivalent" to be put at stake. Of course High and Divine magic are out of reach for mortals even when they use Alchemy. Also, very high Occult levels should also help in Alchemic rituals. 1/10Occult (round down at multiples of 5) should be added to the check, meaning an Occult Master would have a nice +20 bonus to rituals. Also, Intelligence Limit for casting spell effects should apply to Alchemy as well. After all increasing Intelligence is good anyway for this class, since it raises both Science and Occult and grants more Alchemy Level, hence new tricks.

Finally there's the problem about projecting Spells (since some of the spells in the Alchemist's arsenal should be attack/spiritual/defense). I'd use Magic Projection just because it's easy. No matter how you summon a fire bolt or a earth spike, the ability to direct it on target should be developed in a similar way by mages and alchemists alike.

Now, with this Alchemy system in mind...let's work to the class.

 

Two things are important for an Alchemist: Zeon and Science. Also a PURE Alchemyst shouldn't be a fighter. Again, Alchemists in FMA are often sort of multi-class character and are such high levels that have had plenty of time (or adventures) to refine themselves both as warriors and alchemy. An Alchemist should be a pure Mystic Archetype Class.

For simplicity, let's take the Wizard scaffold.

Magic Accumulation cost should be raised to 60 as is for a Summoner, since it's only actually required for Regeneration (and the Alchemist can always buy Regeneration Multiples instead of Accumulation Multiples for half the cost). Also Zeon/Level should be the same as for a summoner, so +50Zeon/Level instead of the Wizard's +100.

As for the secondaries, appy reduced cost to Science instead of Magic Appraisal and add +10Science and Occult per Level (no bonus to Magic Appraisal/Level).

Like this the class gets -50Zeon/Level and pays more for Magic Accumulation (well...since it has to buy only Magic Regeneration, we might say that it actually pays it LESS). Also on average this class has +5/Level on Secondary Abilities.

Some of you might argue that this class is "weaker" than Wizard BUT they should note an important detail: although Alchemy is ritual based, so suffering penalties for quick-casting AND requires material components of some kind to be performed, an Alchemist at creation has +2CP compared to a Wizard, since no Gift is required and this very much balances the things since 2CP are a HUGE amount of CPs in this game.

Now, since I understand you like the idea of "fighting alchemists" as is in FMA...we need a Warrior Alchemist class (from mixed Mystic-Fighter Archetype).

Same process here.

Take the Warlock

MA Multiple goes to 60DP

Add Reduced Cost Science.

+5Science/Level and +5Occult/Level (no bonus to Magic Appraisal/Level).

 

That's how I'd work-out Alchemy and Alchemists in Anima System, of course but in your games you're free to make them work as you like.

I don't have time right now to scroll all spell list and choose those spells that would be fitting for alchemists. It would also be very interesting making a skill tree based on Alchemy Level just like the Arcana Sephira for Wizards, but working with Alchemy as an alternative way of spending Alchemy Level instead of just buying new spells.

Hope these ideas were helpful! Your idea was very interesting to me and I believe I'm going to work it out somehow in my own games!



#5 Evrae

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 05:47 AM

 Thanks Elrick (by the way I love those books). These ideas are great and i will re-examine my alchemist so that it looks less like a fighter. I'll also re-post this on the main homemade class page as soon as I feel like I've fixed it enough. It will probably take a while before I get the time to come up with a total system for Alchemy and perfect the class, but it will come in time. To everyone else: yes you can use the class, but you might want to work on it yourself or wait for me to make it better.



#6 Evrae

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 06:02 AM

 Also, for clarification, what do you mean by Magic Regeneration? Looking through the book I don't see anything about it? Is is just a typo?



#7 Raybras

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 06:13 AM

its an rule they added in arcana exxet



#8 Evrae

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 05:09 PM

 Ok. thank you. thats a book i dont have yet



#9 Xamusel

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 06:05 PM

I should amend that for Raybras:  It's not even translated yet into English, so you'll have to wait for Arcana Exxet to be available wherever you live, anyway.

Fortunately enough, this ought to be solved soon enough, with the right translator anyway.



#10 ElricOfMelnibone

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 07:03 PM

Sorry, I tend to forget Arcana Exxet isn't exactly public dominion...anyway:

In Arcana Exxet there's a rule that allows a character to buy Magic Regeneration Multiples for HALF the cost of Magic Accumulation Multiples. It counts as additional Magic Accumulation Multiples but only for daily Zeon Regeneration. For summoners it's a life saver, since it spares them tons of DP (they only need to regenerate zeon, since the Accumulation is only required to cast spells more quickly) and the same would be for the Alchemists, at least as far as they use a system similar to the one I posted earlier.



#11 Evrae

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 01:22 PM

 Thank you for explaining. To Elric: I was thinking of making the class more balanced compared to other class without giving them +2 CP. Instead, I was thinking of making spells cost less. Maybe something like 25% less than they would for wizards. I feel like this helps even them out with the other classes and makes them more realistic because the alchemists don't create the energy for the transmutaion themselves. 



#12 ElricOfMelnibone

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 07:30 PM

The +2CP isn't something you "GIVE" the Alchemist (I must have explained myself in a pretty unclear way, so sorry).

The simple fact that The Alchemist DOES NOT TAKE The Gift, while the Wizard HAS TO TAKE The Gift, means that if you let the Alchemist "cast" (which is what this class is somewhat going to do), he/she will do it WITHOUT spending the 2CP for The Gift, hence having (in comparison to a Wizard) +2CP.

This is why Alchemists shouldn't pay less spells...they already have a BIG advantage.

ALSO, considering the Anima Standard Setting, NOT HAVING The Gift, but still being able to cast spells, is a big advantage because you don't have the "Gifted People Aura", meaning that Inquisitors and other "not exactly mage-loving guys" won't be bothering you as much as a wizard (and escaping their attention will be easier). If you're playing the Anima Setting this is a very BIG advantage.

I like Alchemist, but one should always be careful when playing around with the magic system of an RPG setting in order to create a new "spell-using" class, because magic systems are carefully balanced and often already a little bit off balance.

Anyway, the gold rule is always: everything that works good with you and enjoys your master/players is ok!



#13 F3nr1s

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 11:20 PM

 I have looked over your draft again and there are some points:

1. No mystic archetype gets +30 MK per lvl, I think this is to high.

2. Pure mystic archetypes have +1 KI for 3 and Accumulation Multiple for 30. Only (mixed) class fighter or prowlers habe +1 Ki for 2 and Accumulation Multiple for 25. So I think it is to cheap.

3. Magic/Alchemical Projection for 3 points is to high, if Magic/Alchemical Projection is the main primary ability.

4. The social-skills for 3 points is to high. No other class pays more than 2 points. The alchemist would be to unsocial.

5. No class has the Intellectual-group for 1 point. This is to cheap. The intellectual-group has 10 skills and all this 10 skills for only one point is kind of crazy. Intellectual-group for 2 points and only Occult, Science and Appraisal for 1 point would be more balanced.

 

At some point, I have the feeling, that you try to get a mystic/fighter and not a pure mystic.



#14 ElricOfMelnibone

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 06:43 AM

After thoughtful insight I understood that basing Alchemy solely on secondary abilities (like science and occult) would make it substantially accessible to each and any class...meaning that any character would be able with minimal DP or CP expense to use it (at least to a limited degree).

Of course this is a big bug in the system I proposed earlier.

The only real way to make Alchemy work in a rightfully limited way is have it work on a Primay Ability (as is for all supernatural abilities, of course). For analogy reasons, and since I don't want to introduce a NEW primary mystical ability in my games, I decided that it would be best to turn it into a Summon-Related Zeon-based ability working somewhat like invocation.

Substantially, Alchemy (like summoning) can be accessed by anyone, of course, but summoner classes will have better access to it (followed by wizards and freelancers).

Science and Occult will play an important role nevertheless, since they will "limit" the base of the Summon rolls for using Alchemy (that will still be ritualized in a similar fashon to summoning).

Access to Alchemy will be determined by a skill tree based on Magic Level (so the number of "points") that will not only determine the access to alchemy spells (I believe I will do a couple alternative "alchemy paths" with a cost of 80ML-100ML each) but also to skills for using Alchemy (similar to the Arcana Sephira). For example there will be option for getting Predetermined Magic Projection, that would spare a lot of DP for "pure summoner-alchemists" that pay far too much DPs for Magic Projection. There will be more...since Intelligence 20 gives access to 800 points of Magic Level and a Level 20 hero can buy up to 250 Magic Level, I believe that the skill tree will have something like 10 branches with a comprehensive cost of 100ML each. OF COURSE there will be Level requirements for higher skills in the branches, so that a Level1 character cannot immediately buy 10 spheres of the Predetermined Magic Projection branch and cast spells with absurd magic projection when he's Level1!

Finally, there will be the Alchemist specialization for Summoner Classes (just like the Invoker described in Arcana Exxet) that will work like it can use Summon ONLY for Alchemy, but will pay less Zeon for casting Alchemy Spells and different Secondary Abilities Innate Class Bonus.

Built like this Alchemist should be pretty system-balanced.

Of course...building the whole Alchemy system will be pretty long...as soon as I have completed a first "print" of it, I will post it on the forum...but don't hold your breath until then.



#15 ElricOfMelnibone

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 08:40 AM

Hi guys...after a day of work this is what Alchemy should be like to me. As you can see, in the end I chose the Alchemist to be a specialization of the Freelancer Class, instead of a Specialization of the Summoner Class, although Summoners surely still have good access to Alchemy as an optional ability.

 

ALCHEMY

ALCHEMIC RITUALS:
Anyone with sufficient Summon and Science abilities can perform Alchemic rituals. Making an alchemy ritual is the same as performing a Summon Ritual and requires a Summon check with a difficulty based on the Level of the Alchemy Spell the character wishes to use and the Casting Level the alchemist is aiming for (Base, Intermediate, Advanced, Arcane). Anyway, since a good scientific knowledge is required to perform a Summoning ritual, the Science Secondary Ability of the character limits the Summon ability of the alchemist. In other worlds the character will have to use the highest value between Summon and Science for his Alchemy checks. Add to this value 1/10 of the character’s Occult ability rounding down.
The base difficulty of the Alchemy ritual check is equal to double the Level of the spell cast at Base Level. Multiply the difficulty by two for spells cast at Intermediate Level. Multiply the difficulty by three for spells cast at Advanced Level. Multiply the difficulty by four for spells cast at Arcane Level. Intelligence of the character is still used to determine which spells he may cast and the maximum casting level he can achieve with each spell, regardless of his Summon/Science/Occult rates. The Zeon invested in casting the spell is the normal zeon spent for casting that spell at that level and it is paid as a cost, as is for Zeon spent in Summoning/Invocation (in other words, it doesn’t need to be Accumulated through Magic Accumulation). When using Spells that require Magic Projection, the character must use his own Magic Projection, unless he has the Magic Projection Modules.
The Summon ritual for an Alchemy Spell works just like any summoning ritual for Summoning and Invocations, hence the roll is modified by the time spent in performing the ritual as for Table: 65 from Core Exxet.

THE ALCHEMIC TREE
In order to perform Alchemy, a character must buy Alchemic Skill Spheres from the Alchemical Tree. Such skills are learned by paying the indicated Magic Level (ML), but there are a few rules about how a character can buy skills from the Tree.
1) A character may always spend his ML to learn an Alchemic Skill Sphere from the Root Skills.
2) A character can learn any Alchemic Skill Sphere, as far as he already knows all Alchemic Skills Spheres that are directly linked to it and are under it in the Alchemic Tree.
3) Certain Alchemic Skill Spheres require the character to be of a certain Level in order to be able to Learn them, so a character cannot take such skills until he’s reached the necessary Experience Level.
4) Certain Alchemic Skill Spheres have the same name as others. In such cases, in the description of the referred Skill it will be described in detail what is the effect of learning more than one Alchemic Skill Sphere for the same Skill.
5) The Alchemic Tree is divided in 5 Branches (from left to right: Efficiency, Manipulation, Projection, Transmutation, Catalysis), each descending from a single Root Skill Sphere, and Fruit Spheres which needs spheres from two adjacent branches to be known in order to be learned. Once a character chooses a Root Skill from any Branch, different from Projection, that Branch becomes his Primary Branch. If the Primary Branch is at the left of the Branch of Projection, all Alchemic Skill Spheres that are at the right of the Branch of Projection have an increased cost of 5ML per Sphere and vice versa.

ALCHEMISTS:
A Freelancer may choose to “Specialize” as an Alchemist. This can be done either at character’s creation, when switching class to Freelancer or at any level-up if the character is already a Freelancer.
Switching to the Alchemist Specialization Class has a cost of 20DP for a Freelancer and 40DP for characters from other Classes, and the same goes for Alchemists to switch to other classes.
Compared to a Freelancer, the Alchemist spends only 1DP per Summon point and 1DP per 5 Zeon Points, but he can use Summon only for Alchemy Rituals (not for Summoning creatures or using Invocations or Incarnations) and gets +10Summon and +20Zeon each Level as Primary Abilities Innate Bonus.
On the other hand, the Alchemist only gets to distribute on his Secondary Abilities three +10Innate Bonus, one of which must always be given to the Science Secondary Ability.
 

The Alchemic Tree will be posted as soon as it is ready. I require both to draw it AND to write down the effects of ALL Alchemic Skills. You can easily understand that will take pretty long, but stay tooned anyway.

Meanwhile, any feedback is appreciated on what I've posted so far.



#16 Evrae

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 06:05 PM

This looks really good so far! Thank you so much for taking the time to do this. I'm an IB student so time for me is hard to come by and I was going to try and tackle this during the next day we have off, but this looks really good so far. The only thing I would say is to remember equivalent exchange. Again, thank you so much!



#17 ElricOfMelnibone

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 08:49 PM

Yes...I'm rather coscient that equivalent exchange must be put there somewhere. Once I've completed the most technical part of it (the Alchemy tree will be pretty much complicated...both to design and to post), I will somehow work it out.



#18 Arikail

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 06:37 AM

Elric of Melniboné said:

Anyway, since a good scientific knowledge is required to perform a Summoning ritual, the Science Secondary Ability of the character limits the Summon ability of the alchemist. In other worlds the character will have to use the highest value between Summon and Science for his Alchemy checks.

Shouldn't that be lowest value of the two? Or could potentially average them. But I don't think highest value is what you meant.

Anyway, aside from that, it's looking good, and I'm waiting to see what those Alchemical Spheres look like.

Now, is there anything you're planning on putting in place to prevent a Summoner from using his Summoning skills to also be good at Alchemy, if he puts the points into Science? He won't gain the Class based bonus that the Alchemical varient Freelancer gets, but should otherwise be comparable, I would think. Just curious if that's working as intended.



#19 ElricOfMelnibone

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 08:36 AM

First of all, thanks Arikail for reading it thoughly and pointing out several interesting things.

As for the first question, the answer is: Yes! It's definitely LOWEST over there and not highest. My bad! Thank you!

 

I can't still show you the Alchemy tree (tomorrow), but can spoiler you what they're about:

Branch of Efficiency: enhanced zeon regeneration and zeon reduction allowing a far more "efficient casting".

Efficiency-Manipulation Fruits: Skills that allow producing poison/healing potions.

Branch of Manipulation: Spell List from Level 2 to 90.

Manipulation-Projection Fruits: Skills that allow producing offensive potions.

Projection Fruit: Grants Determined Magic Projection.

Projection-Transmutation Fruits: Skills that allow to prepare special stones that fused with the body of an alchemist enhance his alchemy skills.

Transmutation Fruits: Spell List from Level 2 to 90. Different from previous, of course.

Transmutation-Catalysis Fruits: Skills that allow the Alchemist to greatly enhance Forge processes.

Catalysis Fruits: Skills that enhance the effects of cast Alchemy Spells under many aspects and make using them quicker.

The only thing I still have to do is the two spell lists...it will take lots of time: tomorrow. Perhaps, tomorrow in the evening I'll be able to post the whole system.

 

Now, let's get to the final topic. Alchemy CAN clearly be used with great efficiency by both Summoners and Warrior Summoners. They are "ritualistic casters" so it's only normal they have good access to Alchemy. Still, in order to develop Alchemy to decent levels they would have to buy Magic Level (or place CPs on additional Intelligence, something that Summoners and Warrior Summoners won't be happy to do, since they already have to spend them on Power AND Willpower). On the other hand a PURE Freelancer Alchemist won't have any problem, since he has less things on the expense list (no Control/Bind/Banish required).

Of course an Summoner might decide to specialize on alchemy...but it would be worse than an Alchemist for the following reasons. Note that all counts are made without taking CPs into account.

+30Zeon per Level, means the Summoner has a +6DP advantage.

+10Science per Level, on the other hand, means the Freelancer has a huge +20DP advantage.

Many Skills from the Alchemy Tree require Herbal Lore/Poison and/or (optional, but useful) Forge. The Freelancer has two additional free +10 to distribute on Secondary Abilities. Let's assume one of these goes to Occult (to balance the Summoner's Occult Innate Bonus), the other +10 Innate bonus means another +20DP per level on the sheet.

Finally, the Freelancer gets +20MK per Level (which may always come in handy) and pays only 2DP per point in the combat abilities.

BY THE WAY: I just re-read the Alchemist class and observed that I forgot to add a Reduced Cost for Science (1DP per point).

 

Although Summoners make EXCELLENT Alchemists, pure "Freelancer Alchemists" should still be quite a bit better, on my opinion. Still, probably, Warrior Summoners might make BETTER fighter-alchemists than them.



#20 Arikail

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 09:10 AM

Very very nice ideas. And yes, I'd have to agree, the Alchemist makes a better Alchemist, as it should be. So I'm liking the way this is turning out. Thanks very much for the effort, and now I'll have to see if I can find a way to test this out sometime. :)






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