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#1 Ksedih

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 09:38 PM

Do not you think that necromancers are too strong?

Someone is playing with homerule "raise one reanimate"?

In my opinion, upgrade necromancers looks almost meaningless if the necromencers "raise two reanimate".



#2 GreatOldOneHimself

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 10:53 PM

Necromancers are one of the strongest unit in the game, however imho there's no reason to nerf them. Also the upgraded version of banners of war it's really strong (with necromancers you run out of reanimated too soon) but more balanced.



#3 sigmazero13

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 03:25 AM

 They are strong, but they need to be.  The Undead thrive on swarms, and by nerfing that, it makes it much tougher for them.  



#4 Steve-O

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 12:26 PM

I concur with the others.  The Necromancer ability is undeniably cool, but cool != broken.  I've never felt the undead were overpowered in any of the games I've played.  In fact, I would say the four factions are remarkably well balanced on the whole.



#5 Ksedih

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 08:33 AM

 ?k. Thank you all for your answers.

 



#6 Latari

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 05:52 AM

 Yes, they are strong, but if the Undead lose this ability I don't see how they can be competitive in combat. Smart Elven players will "Snipe" Necros every time, while "Chaos" players deal out enough damage to almost nullify the UD army, anyway. Humans....now humans may be justified in complaining in the face of that horrible onslaught of Necros and Reanimates:) 



#7 KevinBakon

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 02:52 AM

Personally, I think they're the best unit in the game.  So I was surprised last game I played when my buddy only got the ability to go off a couple times in the whole game.  He had terrrrrible luck with the fate cards that night.  Obviously, with that critical component of his army missing, he didn't do so well.



#8 Ksedih

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 05:33 PM

Latari said:

 Yes, they are strong, but if the Undead lose this ability I don't see how they can be competitive in combat. 

 

With the new ability of Liches, Necromencers are just as strong, but delayed. 

 



#9 sigmazero13

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 06:19 AM

Ksedih said:

Latari said:

 

 Yes, they are strong, but if the Undead lose this ability I don't see how they can be competitive in combat. 

 

 

 

With the new ability of Liches, Necromencers are just as strong, but delayed. 

 

All liches does is allow them to recruit Archers when they activate their power.  This is decent, but is more useful if you want to save your Reanimates or run out of them; since Necromancers are Initiative 2, and Archers are Initiative 1, I think  most people will opt to take the Reanimates if they can so that the new Reanimates can fight.  Getting the archers is nice for the extra strength, but they won't be able to fight that combat.

Limiting the Necromancers to only one unit would not be boosted much by Liches.



#10 Ksedih

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 10:13 PM

sigmazero13 said:

 

 

All liches does is allow them to recruit Archers when they activate their power.  This is decent, but is more useful if you want to save your Reanimates or run out of them; since Necromancers are Initiative 2, and Archers are Initiative 1, I think  most people will opt to take the Reanimates if they can so that the new Reanimates can fight.  Getting the archers is nice for the extra strength, but they won't be able to fight that combat.

Limiting the Necromancers to only one unit would not be boosted much by Liches.

 

That's the think, I mean that the card-develop will increase necromancers allowing them to reanimate for 2 units instead 1.



#11 sigmazero13

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 04:27 AM

Ksedih said:

sigmazero13 said:

 

 

 

All liches does is allow them to recruit Archers when they activate their power.  This is decent, but is more useful if you want to save your Reanimates or run out of them; since Necromancers are Initiative 2, and Archers are Initiative 1, I think  most people will opt to take the Reanimates if they can so that the new Reanimates can fight.  Getting the archers is nice for the extra strength, but they won't be able to fight that combat.

Limiting the Necromancers to only one unit would not be boosted much by Liches.

 

 

 

That's the think, I mean that the card-develop will increase necromancers allowing them to reanimate for 2 units instead 1.

You are still nerfing the RAW necromancers, basically FORCING the Waiqar player to get this development.  There should be no "must-have" add-ons that a race needs to get.

Waiqars units are incredibly weak overall (Dark Knights notwithstanding).  The Necromancers rarely do any damage - their main power is bringing more units.  The other staple units of Waiqar are tirangles, and the Reanimates are fairly weak unless there are at least 2 of them (as having only one means they essentially have an extra 6 misses!)

I'm not sure why they need to be made even weaker.  Swarms are what they need to be competitive.  Only recruiting one per orb reduces the faction's effectiveness rather significantly.



#12 Ksedih

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 10:17 PM

Development "Liches" useless.
But in our version has a choice: immediately improve necromancers or vampires play.
I'm not saying it's right, just interested in your opinion / advice



#13 Steve-O

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 12:50 PM

Ksedih said:

Development "Liches" useless.
But in our version has a choice: immediately improve necromancers or vampires play.
I'm not saying it's right, just interested in your opinion / advice

If you feel that the liches development is useless, you should give it a bonus to make it worthwhile.

Nerfing something the Waiqar player should normally have access to UNTIL he gets liches is just making things worse.  Not only does the liches development not do anything useful, but now it's actually holding you back until you buy it.



#14 KevinBakon

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 01:15 PM

 I don't think the development is useless!  If you're confident you're going to win a battle, recruit some skelly archers instead of reanimates!  They're better units anyway.  You'll be in better position to hold that position against an attack in the future with more dangerous round 1 units.

 



#15 sigmazero13

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 04:22 PM

Like Kevin says: Skeleton Archers are definitely better than Reanimates, as they go faster, and have a more potent ability.  Reanimates are good in swarms, but so are Archers.  The problem is, it's just "easier" to get Reanimates in the normal game, so Archers don't see quite as much action.

The usefulness of Liches depends on the battle.  If you need the Reanimates to fight to tip the scales of battle, then you won't use it.  If you are planning ahead for the "next" battle, Liches is great by giving you the better unit instead.  I think that's what I like about Runewars in general - there's very few "must do" strategies all the time; instead, there are more situational strategies, that you have to adapt to the game each time it's played to really get the most out of it.  That, for me, is what has kept it from getting boring.

 

That aside, I agree with Steve-O:  Don't NERF a vital Waiqar ability just to make Liches more powerful; what you are instead doing is just making Liches a "must have", and by doing so REMOVING the very flexibility that the game provides overall.

 

But if your group enjoying hosing the Waiqar that badly, and it works for you, then go for it.  I would never play a game with Waiqar using that nerf.



#16 Ksedih

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 08:41 AM

 ok, thank you for your opinions and suggestions. something out of this I learned for myself



#17 tremere110

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 07:29 AM

Don't forget that if you have both the Liches and Unholy Ballistics developments you can use the Skeleton Archers you raise in the same battle! Evil, evil combo. (Unholy Ballistics make Skeleton Archers initiative 2 and use fate cards as square units.)



#18 Katsue

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 12:34 PM

My experience is that I always lose when I play Waiqar. Necromancers are definitely vulnerable to Elven Archers, and are countered directly by Uthuk Warlocks. Furthermore, they don't tend to build up a lot of force in the early game, due to the unreliability of the effect, stacking limits, and the fact that Waiqar (pre-expansion, at any rate) finds it difficult to get a tanking unit into play. (Where Elves and Humans both start with a 2 Health unit, and have an easier time taking mountains.)



#19 KevinBakon

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 05:22 PM

tremere110 said:

Don't forget that if you have both the Liches and Unholy Ballistics developments you can use the Skeleton Archers you raise in the same battle! Evil, evil combo. (Unholy Ballistics make Skeleton Archers initiative 2 and use fate cards as square units.)

Is this true?  Example:

1 necro vs 1 pegasus. Draw for each.  Necro gets a special, peggy gets a damage.  Necro builds 2 archers.  Then they draw before the pegasus damage gets resolved?



#20 sigmazero13

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 07:07 PM

KevinBakon said:

tremere110 said:

 

Don't forget that if you have both the Liches and Unholy Ballistics developments you can use the Skeleton Archers you raise in the same battle! Evil, evil combo. (Unholy Ballistics make Skeleton Archers initiative 2 and use fate cards as square units.)

 

 

Is this true?  Example:

1 necro vs 1 pegasus. Draw for each.  Necro gets a special, peggy gets a damage.  Necro builds 2 archers.  Then they draw before the pegasus damage gets resolved?

No, they don't draw until after the Pegasus damage is applied.  The Necro special does go first, CREATING the archers, so the Pegasus damage could be applied to them, though.

Adding the Archers to the battle is no different than any other situation where you have more than one type of unit with the same initiative number.  (For instance, Elven Archer + Sorcerer vs Flesh Ripper; the Latari Player chooses either Archer or Sorcerer first, and that unit goes at the same time as the Flesh Ripper; after that is completely resolved, then the other unit type will resolve, if they are still alive).






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