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#1 Marshal Lambert

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 09:52 PM

Quick question, easy answer no doubt.

All of the QoD "hatchling" cards say something like "If you control Dragon X, attach Hatchling Y and all of its duplicates to Dragon X as duplicates."

Does this mean you can play the hatchling from your hand to that dragon as a duplicate? If so would this be a marshalling action as per normal duplicate rules?

Whether or not you can attach from your hand does this mean that dragon X can potentially have 5 duplicates (2 more dragon X and 3 hatchlings)?

Thanks



#2 Saturnine

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 11:30 PM

Marshal Lambert said:

 

Does this mean you can play the hatchling from your hand to that dragon as a duplicate?

 

 

 

No. The Hatchlings are not the same characters as the Dragons, so you cannot play them as duplicates on the Dragons. The ability on the Hatchling, because it doesn't say otherwise, is only active when the Hatchling is in play.

And yes, a Dragon can potentially have 5 duplicates with the corresponding Hatchling.



#3 Underworld40k

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 12:53 AM

 I assume this applies when it comes out of shadows as well?

Although we have been interpreting it that the hatchling can attach as it states "if you control X" which we assumed overwrote the standard duplicate restrictions.



#4 ktom

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 01:11 AM

Underworld40k said:

 I assume this applies when it comes out of shadows as well?
I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here. The Hatchlings come into play by coming out of Shadows. Their text, which allows (forces) them to be attached as dupes to their "adult counterparts" only works if the Hatchling is in play. Whether it comes out of Shadows or is put into play by some card effect, they are in play - and once in play, their text activates and applies.


Underworld40k said:

Although we have been interpreting it that the hatchling can attach as it states "if you control X" which we assumed overwrote the standard duplicate restrictions.
You cannot use a character's text while it is in your hand unless it specifically says you can. Period. Well established and documented rule of the game. So since the Hatchlings do not say "from your hand," they do not have anything to do with the standard method for playing dupes. If the adult dragon is in play, you still have to play the hatchling into Shadows, then bring it out of Shadows. Once you do, it will become a dupe, but not before.



#5 Underworld40k

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 02:45 AM

 No worries Ktom, once again getting myself to run in circles chasing my own confusion.

Like a dog and tail, but less cute.

The amazing Underworld ladies and gentlemen!

I'll get my coat.

 



#6 ktom

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 09:10 AM

Underworld40k said:

 No worries Ktom, once again getting myself to run in circles chasing my own confusion.
It's perfectly understandable - and a question that is asked and answered a lot. Makes sense why, of course. The card says "as a dupe," so the natural instinct is to treat it as a dupe of the "adult" dragon whenever possible.

It's one of the problems with such an interactive game. There is so much interplay between the cards that if we always went on instinct, we'd get in trouble because of all the situations where two people's instincts tell them three different things. It would be really hard to "cross" metas, because the "local understanding" of so many cards and interactions would be so pronounced. Instead, we get the opposite trouble. Because there are a number of very strict guidelines for rules interaction (like "text on character cards only works while the character is in play - unless it specifically says otherwise"), there are some situations where your instincts scream at you that it can't possibly work that way. Armies with stealth, birds that can carry swords, Jaqen unable to do the same things as the person he is impersonating, duplicative Hatchlings, that sort of thing.



#7 dcdennis

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 02:16 PM

please excuse this if it is a dumb question.

if you have the dragon in play (adult), then the hatching comes into play and is attached to the adult as a dupe, does the hatchling that is attached to the adult as a dupe prevent the additional copies of the same hatchling from being played because of their unicity? If that is the case I imagine that the best strategy would be to get all your hatchings out first and then play the adult?

school me :)



#8 radiskull

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 02:34 PM

 On p.19 of the rules is says "Duplicates have no text, titles, or traits."

So if I had to guess, once the hatchling attaches as a dupe, it no longer has its title, so it wouldn't prevent a card with the same title from coming into play.



#9 ktom

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 02:40 PM

dh098017 said:

if you have the dragon in play (adult), then the hatching comes into play and is attached to the adult as a dupe, does the hatchling that is attached to the adult as a dupe prevent the additional copies of the same hatchling from being played because of their unicity? If that is the case I imagine that the best strategy would be to get all your hatchings out first and then play the adult?

Remember that once the card becomes a dupe, it is considered a textless, traitless, titleless card. Since the "Green Hatchling" card in play as a dupe on Rhaegal is not considered to have the same title as the "Green Hatchling" card you have in Shadows and the rules of unique are all based on title, there can be no violation based on a titleless card in play - and you're good to go.

 



#10 Khudzlin

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 09:53 PM

And even if you have a copy of an unique card in play and another copy in shadows, you can still bring the latter out (paying its cost); it will become a duplicate.



#11 ktom

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 11:07 PM

Khudzlin said:

And even if you have a copy of an unique card in play and another copy in shadows, you can still bring the latter out (paying its cost); it will become a duplicate.
Well, no. While that is normally true, in this situation, that wouldn't be the case. The Hatchlings enter play first as a character, then a separate effect (from them coming into play) makes them a dupe. The "dupe exception" to the unique card rule only applies if the second copy never enters play as anything other than a dupe. That is, the "becomes a duplicate" needs to be a one-step process in order to fit the exception to rules for unique cards. The Hatchlings would create a two-step process as duplicates to the adult dragon.

So it is the "titleless" aspect of cards in play as duplicates that would allow the Hatchlings to be played/put into play when another copy is out as a duplicate on the adult dragon, not the "it becomes a dupe, so there is an exception in the rules" reasoning.



#12 Khudzlin

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 01:59 PM

ktom said:

Khudzlin said:

And even if you have a copy of an unique card in play and another copy in shadows, you can still bring the latter out (paying its cost); it will become a duplicate.

Well, no. While that is normally true, in this situation, that wouldn't be the case. The Hatchlings enter play first as a character, then a separate effect (from them coming into play) makes them a dupe. The "dupe exception" to the unique card rule only applies if the second copy never enters play as anything other than a dupe. That is, the "becomes a duplicate" needs to be a one-step process in order to fit the exception to rules for unique cards. The Hatchlings would create a two-step process as duplicates to the adult dragon.

 

So it is the "titleless" aspect of cards in play as duplicates that would allow the Hatchlings to be played/put into play when another copy is out as a duplicate on the adult dragon, not the "it becomes a dupe, so there is an exception in the rules" reasoning.

I wasn't referring specifically to the hatchlings there, but to the Shadow rulesheet that says a copy of a unique card can be brought out of shadows by paying its cost even if a copy of it is already in play (assuming the restriction about ownership and control is met and there is no copy of it in the player's dead pile). So if you have a hatchling you own in play, another in shadows and none in your dead pile, you can bring the latter out of shadows and it will become a duplicate to the former. For a hatchling to become a duplicate to its adult counterpart, it still has to enter play first.



#13 Jaydenjames

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:42 PM

Hey guys,

 

Building on this, when a hatchling comes into play from shadows and there is the corresponding Dragon, does a window of opportunity exist in which you are able to play a response before it's ability triggers to attach it to the Dragon as a dupe? For example blanking it's text box so that it doesn't attach to the Dragon? And if so do both players have this window of opportunity (so could I do it myself so that I have more dragons to trigger X number of dragon effects).

 

Thanks

 

JJ



#14 Amuk

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:26 PM

Jaydenjames said:

Hey guys,

Building on this, when a hatchling comes into play from shadows and there is the corresponding Dragon, does a window of opportunity exist in which you are able to play a response before it's ability triggers to attach it to the Dragon as a dupe? For example blanking it's text box so that it doesn't attach to the Dragon? And if so do both players have this window of opportunity (so could I do it myself so that I have more dragons to trigger X number of dragon effects).

Thanks

JJ

The 'attach to the adult as a duplicate' effect on the Shadows Hatchlings is a passive effect. Accordingly, it goes off in Step 4, before the Response window in Step 5. So, no.

 


Cordially,

Amuk

 

"Life is a tragedy for those who feel & a comedy for those who think." - Jean de la Bruyère


#15 Skowza

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 09:35 AM

Might also be worth mentioning that any power that you have on the Hatchling when it attaches as a dupe no longer counts toward your total power since the power is on the duplicate and not the character itself.  At least I hope so or else we've been playing wrong for a while…



#16 radiskull

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 10:33 AM

The only cards that allow power on them to count toward your win condition are your House card, Characters, and cards with Infamy.






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