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The great equalizer...or How to prevent cheesy wins


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#1 wootersl

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 09:53 AM

So the Modern Wonders erk me. Nothing makes me madder than working hard on my tech tree all game only to have the person who has done the least amount of work build the Statue of Liberty and get 2 techs per turn and cheese past me for a win. Or if I'm working hard on the culture track, someone builds the Sydney Opera House and does the same thing.

I understand the logic. The modern wonders are there to speed up the end game. But, at the same time, there is no way to stop a modern wonder. I cannot obsolete it, I cannot use a culture card or tech ability to prevent a start of turn ability. So, how to equalize the wonders without just removing them. Here is my idea:

Statue of Liberty: Start of turn - Gain 5 Trade
Sydney Opera House: Start of turn - Gain 5 Culture
Panama Canal: Start of turn - Add 1 coin to this wonder (maximum of 5 coins)

This still makes them powerful Wonders (especially if planned to work with other techs and wonders) without allowing a cheese win for someone. What do you guys think? I'm going to try it out in my next game.



#2 Fnoffen

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 03:33 AM

wootersl said:

 

So the Modern Wonders erk me. Nothing makes me madder than working hard on my tech tree all game only to have the person who has done the least amount of work build the Statue of Liberty and get 2 techs per turn and cheese past me for a win. Or if I'm working hard on the culture track, someone builds the Sydney Opera House and does the same thing.

I understand the logic. The modern wonders are there to speed up the end game. But, at the same time, there is no way to stop a modern wonder. I cannot obsolete it, I cannot use a culture card or tech ability to prevent a start of turn ability. So, how to equalize the wonders without just removing them. Here is my idea:

Statue of Liberty: Start of turn - Gain 5 Trade
Sydney Opera House: Start of turn - Gain 5 Culture
Panama Canal: Start of turn - Add 1 coin to this wonder (maximum of 5 coins)

This still makes them powerful Wonders (especially if planned to work with other techs and wonders) without allowing a cheese win for someone. What do you guys think? I'm going to try it out in my next game.

 

 

I'd say Nuke it.

Barring that (wonder is in the capital/ you have no uranium/ you don't have Atomic Theory): blockade it. The owner of the wonder doesn't get the bonus from the card as long as the wonder square is blockaded.

Or just crank out units and armies like crazy and try for a surprise military victory.

Or build those wonders yourself. If you're going for a tech win you probably get a huge bunch of trade each turn. It's not that bad of an idea to sacrifice one turn of research to build the Statue instead. Not only do you deny the slackers a cheesy win, you speed up your own win as well.


Pax Magnifica Bellum Gloriosum


#3 wootersl

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 07:54 AM

Fnoffen said:

wootersl said:

 

So the Modern Wonders erk me. Nothing makes me madder than working hard on my tech tree all game only to have the person who has done the least amount of work build the Statue of Liberty and get 2 techs per turn and cheese past me for a win. Or if I'm working hard on the culture track, someone builds the Sydney Opera House and does the same thing.

I understand the logic. The modern wonders are there to speed up the end game. But, at the same time, there is no way to stop a modern wonder. I cannot obsolete it, I cannot use a culture card or tech ability to prevent a start of turn ability. So, how to equalize the wonders without just removing them. Here is my idea:

Statue of Liberty: Start of turn - Gain 5 Trade
Sydney Opera House: Start of turn - Gain 5 Culture
Panama Canal: Start of turn - Add 1 coin to this wonder (maximum of 5 coins)

This still makes them powerful Wonders (especially if planned to work with other techs and wonders) without allowing a cheese win for someone. What do you guys think? I'm going to try it out in my next game.

 

 

I'd say Nuke it.

Barring that (wonder is in the capital/ you have no uranium/ you don't have Atomic Theory): blockade it. The owner of the wonder doesn't get the bonus from the card as long as the wonder square is blockaded.

Or just crank out units and armies like crazy and try for a surprise military victory.

Or build those wonders yourself. If you're going for a tech win you probably get a huge bunch of trade each turn. It's not that bad of an idea to sacrifice one turn of research to build the Statue instead. Not only do you deny the slackers a cheesy win, you speed up your own win as well.

Well, the blockade would work until they brought out their army to attack whoever is blockading it and killed it. And building the wonder would work as long as the wonder doesn't come out before your turn. That was the problem I had. The statue came out and someone else built it before I had a chance. I'm not saying there aren't ways around it. I just think they are cheesy wonders for others to use. I'm thinking of ways to still make them powerful without game being game changers like that.



#4 Peristarkawan

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 06:33 AM

I don't really think any changes are needed, but to comment on a couple of your proposals:

wootersl said:

Statue of Liberty: Start of turn - Gain 5 Trade

Much too weak. By the time the Statue comes out, if I'm working on a tech victory, I expect to be maxed out on trade already. In fact, this is actually weaker than the Porcelain Tower, which effectively gives you 5 extra trade each turn without capping it.

wootersl said:

Panama Canal: Start of turn - Add 1 coin to this wonder (maximum of 5 coins)

I can't really see this changing anything. If the Panama Canal has been around for 5 turns, the game should already be over.



#5 axmeister

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 05:52 AM

Normally if you play this and someone builds a modern wonder then one these points should be true:

1) You should have enough production to be able to build your own modern wonder.

2) You should be near enough towards victory for it not be be worth bothering about

3) Your opponent has foolishly invested all their resources into building it and you should be able to either a) blockade it or b) attack them directly.

If not, then you need to change strategy, it sounds to me like the games you play involve everyone aiming for a Technology victory, in which a wonder like Porcelain Tower and Statue of Liberty really helps, but then the game turns into a race for the aforementioned wonders.

If you are playing with the same people repeatedly, and that they all aim towards a science victory, then I'ld suggest going for the one which they all ignore.



#6 Warstrider

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 05:46 PM

I think there has only been two or three games of our 20+ that the Modern wonders have even come into play.

If someone focuses on culture then they usually get the Great People and Temple/Colosseum around their city and don't worry about spending the time on production instead of gathering for the arts.

If someone focuses on Tech, then their city is covered in trade buildings, more scouts out to gather with and defending against our warmongering players.

If someone focuses on Economic, their city is balanced with buildings to be able to get every coin on the technologies.

If someone focused on Military, well it's all about the production and some trade.  Wonders are just nuisances that take away from the blood.

We have started to work on ideas to get the wonders in play more.  Since at best we get two ancient wonders bought (Free Trade and Culture per turn ones) and the rest just sit there.






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