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#1 bruce_wayne

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 08:58 PM

we need a new faqs with new restricted cards.



#2 decado

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 10:50 PM

True, Derricksburg Forge and Judgment of Verena need to join the list 



#3 Mamut

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 07:04 AM

derricksburg will be fine. It's not that hard to defend against verena or make it dangerous for it's caster aswell.



#4 Takith

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 10:40 AM

bruce_wayne said:

we need a new faqs with new restricted cards.

All well and good with making a statement... but why? And which cards? And why? And why do you think a new FAQ should be issued? As far as I'm aware, there's been no significant rules changes to justify a new FAQ. (Although post-Capital Cycle, I can see something for keyword: Feared)

To Decado: Good to list 2 cards, but again why do you think they should be restricted? In my experience one can counter both card's benefits.



#5 Doc9

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 02:59 AM

Derricksburg and Verena are fine. Verena can be a pain in the ass...but that's no reason to restrict it. We have a player in our group that has a tooled Verena deck. It doesn't dominate.



#6 rzarectz

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 06:02 PM

Restriction should be avoided if at all possible, I agree both these cards are awesome, but certainly not restriction awesome.  Off the top of my head I cant really think of any card that is way to powerful at the moment.  The closest one I can think of off the top of my head is Waaagh! (What?! 10 damage on turn 2?!) But restricting that would be such a painful blow to Orc rush decks (not to mention Orc lore) that I would never support anything like that.



#7 bruce_wayne

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 10:38 PM

the new restricted card must be:

chaos: Kairos Fateweaver ,Unleashing the Spell.

orc: Troll Vomit.

why? because with this restriction, these decks must chose between these cards and "Contested Village". Because since a lot of time, the empire only use its own supports cards.



#8 ChaosChild

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 12:10 AM

None of those cards are worthy of restriction. I'm also not sure why you're mentioning Contested Village since that's not restricted either. The only one I've seen mentioned here that I agree with is Verena, although even that's a close run thing.



#9 DB.Cooper

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 01:41 PM

 Hi everyone! ;)

 

Restricted List needs some changes: Dwarves have to be un-nerfed. Period.

Then, a couple of ideas (no "formal petitions" ;)):

- Rodrik: with him in the restricted, no more insane card advantage and the "3 rodrick's in 3 turns" trick with Call for Reserves/Elite.

- Derricksburg: with it in the restricted, no more Warpstone in Empire decks. Innovation is useless for empire, at the moment.

- Verena: no that important as it was before, but still, a strong psychological advantage. It's a cards that's more strong for the fact that "forces" the oppo to develop (should read: "card advantage"). It's power is not in what it does, but in what "it can do". Empire is strong even if you don't play it in a game..but you HAVE to keep at least 2 in your deck, at the moment...

The net sum of "you have to" and "strong for psicologycal factor" is: restrict it and no more troubles for anyone. Orcs will be free to rush with no "Verena + Long winter" against...Caos will be a REAL threat...Dark elves can be "really" competitive and so on.

 

And, remember: I'm an empire player, so...Everything I just posted is against myself. ;)

 

Anyway...The "dwarf" un-restricting manouvre is definitely a MUST: with an accurate restriction of a SINGLE Empire card and an equally accurate un-restriction for dwarves (mining tunnels anyone? :)), will have our game back in its ultimate form. ;)

 

IMHO, as usual!

Cheers.



#10 Vitamin T

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 05:21 PM

I wouldnt agree that MIning Tunnels needs to be unrestricted.  I current dont find dwarves to be unplayble by any means. 

 

I could see restriction for Derricksburg or Rodricks possibly.  Derricksburg just makes empire have stronger starts than the other factions and rodricks is the best support removal in a faction that doesnt focus on support removal.

 

TL



#11 Vitamin T

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 05:22 PM

Oh yeah, and I think that offering to hekarti is actually stronger than soul stealer, but thats just my feelings.



#12 decado

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 10:43 PM

 I agree with you Vitamin T that Hekarti IS stronger than Soul Stealer. Actually I have completely no idea why Soul Stealer ever joined the restricted list. I would understand Hekarti there - it is very powerful.

 

About Empire's card to be restriced (wish) - the most important and imho obvious choice should be derricksburg forge. Next is Rodrick's Raiders. Verena is not that bad, I've changed my mind and think that Empire needs it unrestricted.

 

Dwarf's - the restricted list for dwarfs should remain unchanged, they were overpowered, now they are strong as they should be.

 

 



#13 DB.Cooper

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 11:22 PM

decado said:

Dwarf's - the restricted list for dwarfs should remain unchanged, they were overpowered, now they are strong as they should be.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I "like" dwarves (not my faction, but they're funny :)). 

But...are you serious? :) 


Can you (you or Vitamine, is not a provocation, is a "funny" challenge ;)) give me a "strong" decklist? 

If we talk about "home" games, everything's ok, you can play VTHC, we can play our supersonic Caos-mill and so on...But, even if we're not talkin' about ultra-competitive games, in the "average" competitive environement I don't see dwarf gettin' more than a 1-4 against any good Empire, Caos or Orc deck. 

They:

- have no good starting hands;

- if they keep their only resource/draw engine, they don't get the combo and vice versa.

 

Then...About Dark Elves. I still don't get why Soul Stealer has been restricted. Never played it in a Dark Elf deck before (well, never played seriously dark elf before the last faqs ;)). 

Now that Dark Elves are (not strong) a bit playbable (nothing to do with the strongest decks), I don't see why they should have Heckarti restricted while Chaos has Sorcerer out, Empire has Rodrick, High Elves have access to an insane get-redirect damage engine and so on...

Still, Heckarti is a card that "one day" can be very overpowered with other interactions...So maybe you're not that wrong...But that's not something we should care about nowadays, IMHO. :)

 

A little in depth analysis about Verena: I agree, as I said, that it's not that important anymore, it's NOT the key-kard in empire decks nowadays...

But, we shouldn't always think in terms of "strong/not strong", 'cause everything can change from different point of views...We should think about its inner strength. 

 

So: you're playin' Orc Rush (the strongest deck after empire, till now), I'm playin' Empire. You don't know if I'm play Verena. 

I start (it deson't make any difference, it's just an example): play my 2 (or three, usually) cards. Pass.

You play Spider Riders + the "0" guy + Bats in the battlefield. Normally, it's a "done zone" (hopefully). :) 

My turn. Verena. 1 card (me) for 3 (you) and maybe I've 1 money left. Now, if you DON't close the deal NOW, you'll never do. That's in the rush DNA. :)

(I know it's an extreme situation, but that's how it usually goes :)).

If you play as you "should", you should develop, and still I've two possibilities to JUDGE you.

Now: if I don't play around Verena and don't play all the "usual top 9", I'm "over" your strategy with my "2x verena". Cause you develop (read: lose a card) and lose at least 3 cards on the table. 

 

That's the point. You see empire, you develop. 1 less card and NOONE has the card advantage possibilities of Empire decks with its powerful starts. My develop it's not like your develop. I develop because my strategy can focus on it, you don't. 

You don't develop? Not bad: I won't use my "develops control" staff. One more card for mid late game (or 1 more "no problem dev" for my synergies).

That's the reason why Verena IS NOT strong as it was before (actually, it can be, it's the Empire that changed its focus): not "the ultimate" combo card, but an insidious "shadow" on the oppo's strategy. :)

 

So: if we talk about casual game, we're ok, don't bother. I play casual games too and my Dark Elf mill deck is as entertaining as my friend's Orc control deck...But for competitive game, things are a bit different....We're on a good "wind of change", everyone's happy about that, but no chance, empire is still strong and we need to wait for more cards and "ffgs" interventions to "recover" from this "one way" year of play.

 

Sorry if I wrote a lot, but I like to speak about "played" examples and "actual" stuff rather than metagaming (where everything seems allowed): in my mind, Dark Elves are the strongest, and Caos is really competitive, but, shame on me, it's not the truth. :(

 

 



#14 HappyDD

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 05:05 AM

Wasn't Mining Tunnels on the original list of restrictions? I am not sure if there will be an un-restriction, but the ever-dreaded "power creep" that everyone references (and to some extent is real, let's not kid ourselves) has led to a situation where unrestricting Mining Tunnels isn't going to exactly turn the Dwarves into a hard-hitting powerhouse of badasses. It's awesome to draw when you develop, especially if you can run the other restricted card Reclaiming the Fallen and somehow sacrifice developments that are units, I'm just not sure how game-breaking that will be since I don't have enough of a meta to draw on. When the list first came out people were generally happy with it, I think it's good to leave it be and just add to it if we see another VTHC. But as with all meta-related issues I have to at least listen to the Italians, maybe even agree with them sometimes

Empire has really good cards because, for whatever reason, a little bit of control in this game can go a long way and Empire has lots of little control-ish tricks that net up to a serious advantage if a game goes on for more the 3 or 4 turns. Roderick's Raiders sucks as far as units go, but give it the ability to turn supports into developments and you have yourself a wicked card. What D.B. Cooper is referencing with his "card pool knowledge strategy" comments are also true: If you sit down against an Empire deck you've never seen in a tournament, you have to respect the fact that it might be running some form of the Verena package and thus you HAVE to dev, something that your deck might not like doing. I'm not sure what cards are on the horizon, but from the preview page for the Empire-focused battle pack it doesn't look like things are going to get worse for the Empire.



#15 DB.Cooper

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 01:47 PM

You got the exact point HappyDD. :)

I'd add, as an addition to the empire-point of your analysis (thanks for the good discussion inputs ;)), that, as we noticed a couple of times before and as everyone recognized as true, this game is about "board control-placement" and "cruel-attacks". You have the "strategic" part of building your strategy and the "WARHAMMER" part of destroyin' your oppo's capital. :)

Now, going in depth of the game basys, we can see three basic points that are definitely a MUST in any strategy and deck to tag it as "good":

1- Starting hand.

2- Resource management/advantage (cards and "money")

3- Attack power.

Note: Orc Rush is a bit "out" of schemes, 'cause it doesn't really focus on point 2, just to optimize point 1 and 3.

 

Now, let's see them in depth from the Empire point of view.

1- Starting Hand

A well built empire deck has a lots of 3 cards start or a powerful 2 KZ cards. Every Empire or neutral card used for starting purposes fit incredibly well a "cost curve" management that a control deck really needs. 

As a rule of thumb, a Control Deck SHOULD start doing something really incisive at turn 3-4, while Rush decks should win within that range (or lose).

Empire has a STRONG capital at the beginning of turn 3, has some forms of card advantage and protections and can get an INSANE draw engine out. 

Example (basic): 

Turn 1: Derricksburg + cost 2 drop (Jade, Panther, City Gates, temple, hidden grove, etc.) in KZ.

Turn 2: Friederich in QZ with Iron Discipline in hand.

It's basicy game over. Even if you kill Friederich after 1 turn, I have 5 more cards than you and 5 resources (and you lose 1 turn to kill that big guy :)).

So, here's the first advantage (a big mistake, to me): a CONTROL faction that has possibly the BEST starting possibiities after Orc Rush. Insane.

 

2- Resource managements/advantage (cards and money)

Again, a control deck should take some time to build up what it needs...Following the point 1 reasoning, you'll pull out your POWERFUL tricks pretty soon.

Call for Reserves + Rodrick, Elite + Jade Acolyte, Call for reserves + Elite, Call for reserves + Skinks, Elite + Rodrick, Elite + Skinks, WoTE + JoV, LW + JoV and so on...

That's an incredible amount of choices for a control decks' turn 2. Insane. 

Even a "simple" Rodrik + CfR at turn 2 it's a kind of "I'm going to collect five and draw 2, you're going to start the game right now". 

INSANE. 

 

3- Attack Power

Friederich doesn't need banning or restricting. It's strong...But what makes it's stronger than every other hero (at the moment, with the current restricted list) is the flexibility and choices for points 1 & 2. 

Drop it in your QZ, play Karl Franz, move it on the battlefield with another guy. It's a 2-turns countdown at turn 4-5. INSANE.

 

I did just "basic" examples, but I think it's enough...

Everyone should analyse their decks in this way: how do I start? How do I increase/control resources? How do I close the deal when the time comes? 

Empire is the ONLY faction that has a GOOD and SURE answer for any of those questions and that's the sign that it's still on top...

 

I know everyone could notice that Dark Elves, High Elves and sometimes Chaos has quick overtures too...But the cards I have for them are not as strong as the ones I have for empire. It's like even neutrals fit empire's strategy in a terrific manner (no reason to choose stuff over Warpstone from the restricted...It's concrete, useful, improves starting tricks and helps even more than Wilhelm).

 

I'm not a top player: I re-started playin' at the beginning of this year's league and I need lots of practicing...But I know the game, I see playtesting and tournaments (alive or by reports) almost every week or two and that's what gives me a little bit of awareness...

Believe me, I don't speak to feel "strong" :) I speak 'cause I LOVE this game, I've did a lot for it in our meta and I will. 

This is just an analysis of a player who wants to go in depth with this game, help noobs to understand it (we're noob to in front of better players, though), do something for the community and, maybe, help FFG improve their AMAZING design skills. 

 

IMHO
DB



#16 Jaszczurr

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 01:48 AM

In my opinion (and I am a Dwarf player) unrestricting any dwarf card would be a big mistake.

First of all before restrictions Minning Tunnels were in ALL good order decks - just think of it as a 2 power support which can have its power divided into 2 zones (kingdom and quest). This card is just too strong.

Secondly RTF is one of the best tactics in the game, which can single handadly win the game. Note that Verena, Vomit or other "great" tactic is very strong to gain control over the game or get you far ahead - they are just tools that don't win the games. RTF wins games, you just need some common sense and good deck to operate it.

I think (and I believe that most of the players will disagree) that dwarf is the best combo fraction, and maybe the best in the game (even stronger than the Empire).

And no, I am not a casual player :D

 

BR,

Jaszczur



#17 cuttingrage

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 08:17 AM

This is what I find most annoying and frustrating about the game right now. There are all these cards that are not strong enough to be restricted but these slightly imbalanced cards are impacting the game in a strong way. Most changes can be as small as 1 more loyalty or 1 less HP.
Cards comparable to Judgement of Verena and Troll Vomit would now be printed with three loyalty cost instead of two. Master Rune of Valaya, Rip Dere ‘eads Off and perhaps even My Life for the Hold should also cost more loyalty.
Unit cards which should cost more loyalty are Lobber Crew, Sor of Tz and Shades. Some units need a tweak as small as 1 less HP - Vile Sorceress, Seasoned Corsair, Clan Moulder's Elite and Wight Lord.
Its kind of getting to the point that you can almost always tell which unit a race will be playing in its deck. DE automatically means Shades and often Seasoned Corsair too. Dwarves automatically mean Slayers of KK and Cannon Crew. Lobber Crew is better than Sacrifice to Khaine.


I am not sure what should be done about these - Derricksburg Forge, Church of Sigmar and Slave Pen. These support cards are strong for their cost. It seems that support cards are making or breaking races.
I strongly dislike Rodrik’s Raiders because as VitaminT said it gives a strong support removal to a race that does not focus on removal. I was planning on posting a thread on this later. Other cards which might need outright errata are Dwarf Cannon Crew (support cost 1 instead of 2?), Dwarf Ranger (no Scout), Slayers of Karak Kadrin and especially Iron Discipline which is nowhere comparable to more recent cards (cheap and can target any unit).

It seems like most such cards come from the earlier sets although even the most recent ones have some ridiculous cards. I love it that Chaos got a boost as SoT but it costs just 1 loyalty? Too splashable - it boosted more than Chaos. The problem with cards with too low a loyalty cost is that in competitive play you are more likely to see multi race cards as players just take only the strongest cards from each race to build their decks. Even more recent and more balanced cards cannot replace those cards.
Orcs and Empire are the strongest races now and so instead of getting power creep on other races I would prefer to have FFG focus on some Empire nerf in the faq and anti-rush in future cards. I believe that the newer cards have more reasonable costs for what they do.
 



#18 Budmilka_fr

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 06:07 PM

Restricting Derricksburg Forge, it's a good start for Empire/Order players, so I wouldn't mind if it is restricted.

Verena : I've already said my disagreement of restricting resets before. Still the same.

Rodrik : It's powerful. I see that Order is better in blasting supports, Destruction is better in blasting units, so Rodrik follows the same way, just like Sorcerer of Tzeentch follows the unit-blasting way. They cost the same, but SoT keeps blasting all the way, so restricting one means restricting the other. And I disagree with restricting them.



#19 Cold One

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 08:17 AM

My two cents about Judgement of Verena. Please FFG do something with this card. Maybe this card isn't overpowered, but definitly is very strong and make meta very dull. Almost all empire decks on tourneys have this card on board. All decks are made to counter Verena, or you need to spam developments and cross your fingers that your opponen don't have Long Winter and Will of Electors to punish you either way.

The main problem with JoV is that this is the only card in game that can reset opponent to zero, giving too easy win to empire decks. Killing units isn't bad (Troll Vomit is fine, Flames of Phoenix is fine too), but destroying support cards maki this card very annoying and game changing. We all learned that economy is main issue in WHI. Verena definitly is very strong in it's current form. Maybe change it so it only destroys units? It will be comparable in power to Troll Vomit and Flames of Phoenix. We have card like Manaan Take You! with is uselles compared to Verena at the moment, but could be very strong if Verena will be changed in some way. I think restriction will not resolve the problem completly.

Second thing, please look at loyality cost of older cards and don't be affraid to do some changes. Also look at cards that have abilities that give some bonuses or can do much in game and try to limit it uses to once per turn in some cases (Garden of Morr for example don't have this limit).



#20 stormer

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 01:13 PM

DBCooper, you posted a great, clear and incontestable analisis.

That's the point, as you explained in detail, Empire now is really overpowered, too versatile, too fast in earliest (and decisive) turns.

There are no chances for any other race: derricksburg forge is really strong in your first hand, rodrick is really powerfull standalone and especially in combos(i hate most of all "endless rodrick decks" based on Rodrick, Call for Reserves, Osterknacht Elite, ...).

And Verena?? ...what can be said about this psychologically destructive weapon never said before?? 

 

I think something should be done... otherwise in next european tournament we seriously risk to have "deep blue" Top ranking", a mono-race final phase... 

 






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