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#1 galladril

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 07:16 PM

Is there a FAQ concerning the warhorse?

It just seems like it is an ultra powerful follower, especially late game.

I just finished a game where there were actually 3 players on the Crown of Command at once.

I thought I actually had a chance, until I realized that someone had a warhorse, and was basically attacking, without rolling, for about 24 strength.

Seemed like it would cheapen the Werewolf and Pit Fiend Encounters, as well, and I was just wondering if there might be a balance issue concerning it.

Thoughts? Anyone?



#2 The_Warlock

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 07:45 PM

galladril said:

Is there a FAQ concerning the warhorse?

It just seems like it is an ultra powerful follower, especially late game.

I just finished a game where there were actually 3 players on the Crown of Command at once.

I thought I actually had a chance, until I realized that someone had a warhorse, and was basically attacking, without rolling, for about 24 strength.

Seemed like it would cheapen the Werewolf and Pit Fiend Encounters, as well, and I was just wondering if there might be a balance issue concerning it.

Thoughts? Anyone?

I read the card text only once and I can be mistaken. It is a powerful Follower, but he grants you to add your Craft value to your Strength, when you resolve a Combat. According to the new rules, the Craft value is your starting Craft. The Wizard will take the most benefit with a +5 (Troll gains only +1), but if you speak about a total of 24, I assume you were adding Strength and Craft totals, Objects included.

It's not the way it works and you should read Monk's Inner Belief Ability and Psionic Blast Spell the same way (Craft value = Starting Craft).

 



#3 galladril

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 07:56 PM

The_Warlock said:

 

I read the card text only once and I can be mistaken. It is a powerful Follower, but he grants you to add your Craft value to your Strength, when you resolve a Combat. According to the new rules, the Craft value is your starting Craft. The Wizard will take the most benefit with a +5 (Troll gains only +1), but if you speak about a total of 24, I assume you were adding Strength and Craft totals, Objects included.

It's not the way it works and you should read Monk's Inner Belief Ability and Psionic Blast Spell the same way (Craft value = Starting Craft).

 

 

Right after I posted this, I went to the errata 1.3 from BI, and actually looked up the Monk's ability, which, in the errata, stated:

"3.7 - Monk

 Q1: The Monk’s Special Ability which allows him to add his Craft to his Strength in Combat seems very powerful. Is this correct? How about a Psionic Blast Spell?

 A1: Yes, this is correct. However, the Monk's Special Ability should read 'you may add your Starting Craft to your Strength in Combat. The same applies to a Psionic Blast Spell."

This seems to be what got messed up. Your assumption of  "adding Strength and Craft totals, Objects included" was absolutely correct.

Yes, it's still powerful, but not as much as it was this evening. I wish I would have known this going in - I probably would have won the game.

Been playing for 20 years, and I still get confused on the rules, and still have questions. God, I love this game!

Thanks for the ultra fast response. :)



#4 Lubricus

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 08:34 PM

It IS quite interesting that the Warhorse is more effective for the Wizard than for, say, the Warrior...



#5 The_Warlock

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 08:41 PM

galladril said:

This seems to be what got messed up. Your assumption of  "adding Strength and Craft totals, Objects included" was absolutely correct.

Yes, it's still powerful, but not as much as it was this evening. I wish I would have known this going in - I probably would have won the game.

Been playing for 20 years, and I still get confused on the rules, and still have questions. God, I love this game!

It happens to everyone. :) I haven't played the Reaper expansion yet, but I'm sure the new cards will raise more and more questions.

I like this feature of Talisman; the game keeps changing every time, depending on which cards are drawn, in which order, which Characters are in play, how they're used, the number and the attitude of players. You will always find a weird situation that can't be solved with general rules.

It's impossible to cover every single issue and a support forum and FAQ are most needed with Talisman. On the contrary, some games like Runebound have a really solid game system that generates no bugs, but they're not so unpredictable and funny like Talisman. IMHO



#6 The_Warlock

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 08:50 PM

Lubricus said:

It IS quite interesting that the Warhorse is more effective for the Wizard than for, say, the Warrior...

Yes, it's really odd, but a Warrior has a greater Strength and can easily increase it.

If you lose a Combat with the Warhorse, you have to discard it. The Warrior is less likely to lose a Combat and he will surely keep it longer than the Wizard. In fact, the Characters that gain the most benefit from the Warhorse are balanced Characters (3/3, 4/3, 3/4).

A question: what about the Monk? Can he add his Craft value twice if he has the Warhorse?



#7 Dam

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 08:58 PM

But Warrior can lose a psychic combat fairly easily, given a 4 or 5 Craft Spirit. At least my Warhorse states that you lose it if you lose battle or psychic combat.


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#8 The_Warlock

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 09:15 PM

Dam said:

But Warrior can lose a psychic combat fairly easily, given a 4 or 5 Craft Spirit. At least my Warhorse states that you lose it if you lose battle or psychic combat.

Argh, I forgot that. It's quite strange considering the Warhorse doesn't give you any bonus in Psychic Combat... then it is definitely a Follower for balanced Characters, in spite of its name. A Warhorse should be a mount for fighters, not for librarians and scholars, but rules shape it that way.

 



#9 JCHendee

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 03:38 AM

The Warhorse has never made sense the way it is written. A warhorse is trained for battle, requiring some skill in using such, but having intellectual prowess isn't what's involved. And the whole thing with Craft / Psychic Combat is out in left field. Better to house rule that the Warhorse allows +2 when Attacking but not when being Attacked. If you lose a Physical Combat, lose a life or the Warhorse. That's the way it would really work.



#10 galladril

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 08:07 AM

Lubricus said:


It IS quite interesting that the Warhorse is more effective for the Wizard than for, say, the Warrior...

I was actually playing the Knight character, which made it to me, fall more in line than the Merchant who was actually using it.

The_Warlock said:


Lubricus said:

A question: what about the Monk? Can he add his Craft value twice if he has the Warhorse?

THAT is an interesting question. I guess my answer would be YES, because otherwise, the only bonus a monk would receive from gaining the warhorse would be saving 1 life.

JCHendee said:


The Warhorse has never made sense the way it is written. A warhorse is trained for battle, requiring some skill in using such, but having intellectual prowess isn't what's involved. And the whole thing with Craft / Psychic Combat is out in left field. Better to house rule that the Warhorse allows +2 when Attacking but not when being Attacked. If you lose a Physical Combat, lose a life or the Warhorse. That's the way it would really work.

I have 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Ed. I remember from 2nd ed, it specifically stated "charging" into combat, and that word alone caused a major problem - i.e. "What is charging, can you charge on board encounters, or when you are attacked," etc.

I would say it needs to be worded as: "Add you starting craft into your strength for any Enemy or Character you attack, but not when being attacked."

The +2 takes the advantage away from persons with higher craft, but at least your way, it is clearly worded.



#11 librarycharlie

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 05:11 PM

Warhorse has only come up twice in our games, both times to a strong character, and both times the very next card drawn was a Wraith, which knocked it off.

It's incredibly powerful, but not so much if one's craft is low.

 

The old BI errata made things balanced nicely.  A newer version of the old 4th edition characters revised some of the language (prophetess misprint, dwarf, monk @ +base Craft).  When the Revised edition came out, the all-important balancing word "base" was missing from the Monk.  He's a 5/3 starting, and becomes 7/5 if he draws Solomon's Crown on turn one.  Not a bad character at all.



#12 Dam

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 07:27 PM

librarycharlie said:

The old BI errata made things balanced nicely.  A newer version of the old 4th edition characters revised some of the language (prophetess misprint, dwarf, monk @ +base Craft).  When the Revised edition came out, the all-important balancing word "base" was missing from the Monk.  He's a 5/3 starting, and becomes 7/5 if he draws Solomon's Crown on turn one.  Not a bad character at all.

Huh? FFG uses the term "Craft value" which means the craft listed on the card (aka starting craft). Nothing adds to this AFAIK.


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#13 JCHendee

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 03:40 AM

galladril said:

 

The +2 takes the advantage away from persons with higher craft, but at least your way, it is clearly worded.

 

 

That's exactly my point. Craft has nothing to do with using a warhorse, as I know people who have actually worked with a horse trained for specific purposes. The horse has the skill, not the rider.  And yes, it can use those skills without the rider necessarily doing anything. This included one horse who could "track" by sight and distinguish to some degree the different tracks of other horses... amazing stuff to see! And the rider had no tracking skills at all.

The whole adding Craft to combat skills has never made any sense in any part of the game. But either way, there certainly are poorly worded cards being re-inserted into 4th with little to no thought... after confusing (and pointless) terminology changes in the rules. The whole thing with the Monk is another loophole... does it get to add its Craft "Value" twice when it uses the warhorse? This is the never ending problem of such rules and objects and followers with like abilities to those found on character cards. There's just no way the monk would have that much advantage from a mundane object or follower.... and more and more and more house rules get created to "fix" things.

By the by, did the warhouse maintain the same desc. / wording throughout all editions?  That would be doubly sad that no one edited it after so many years.



#14 BanthaFodder

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 05:08 AM

When we used to play 2nd edition many years ago, this card was eventually removed as it was just too powerful

and started too many fights.  That was of course when we were adding the total craft onto the strength making a player

almost unbeatable if late in a game. You could have renamed the game Warhorse rather than Talisman as you needed it to win.

 



#15 talismanisland

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 09:44 AM

I wouldn't get too caught up in the use of Craft value with the Warhorse. Basically, the mechanic behind the Warhorse, Monk and Psionic Blast is that you get to add "a number" to your roll in battle.

You can see the reasoning perhaps of using Craft value for the Monk with the shoehorned-in wording about "inner belief". Psionic Blast is a staple of fantasy gaming using the power of the mind, so that is also a given. The spell and ability could quite easily have been called something else, used another number and had just the same effect.

When the Warhorse was up for discussion,  using a fixed amount was suggested, but it was decided to leave it with the same, familiar mechanic as the other two so the benefit of it depended on the Craft value (or starting Craft as it was known at the time!) and it would not just become a big Sword!

If you still have a problem using the Craft aspect, then just consider that fighting whilst riding a horse requires a degree of mental agility or skill and you should be golden!

And no, the Monk cannot use the Warhorse in addition to his ability, much like the Prophetess can't use the Orb of Knowledge cumulatively with her ability of scrying.


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#16 Hiero5ant

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 10:36 AM

talismanisland said:

And no, the Monk cannot use the Warhorse in addition to his ability, much like the Prophetess can't use the Orb of Knowledge cumulatively with her ability of scrying.

Is there a FAQ/errata reference for this answer? If the Monk/PB/WH mechanic is "add a certain number", why CAN'T some combination of these three stack? It's not like "the Number 3" gets tired after being added once and needs a rest.



#17 talismanisland

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 10:50 AM

There is currently no FAQ to reference, but there will be in time. And feel free to play these cards however you feel comfortable.


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#18 Hiero5ant

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 07:08 AM

talismanisland said:

There is currently no FAQ to reference, but there will be in time. And feel free to play these cards however you feel comfortable.

When *I'm* the Monk psionically blasting folks from my warhorse, I feel comfortable with my interpretation. But when someone else does it and I'm lagging behind with a third tier character like the Elf, I can't shake some nagging suspicion that maybe Craft value works like mana in M:tG and gets "tapped".



#19 The_Warlock

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 11:53 PM

talismanisland said:

And no, the Monk cannot use the Warhorse in addition to his ability, much like the Prophetess can't use the Orb of Knowledge cumulatively with her ability of scrying.

Yeah, but he can't use the Psionic Blast too, if you rule like this. There's no other case in the game where a Character cannot use a Spell in the deck (maybe an Elf can't cast Invisibility in the Woods, 'cause he's already able to Evade there?)... what if a Monk with the Wand draws Psionic Blast? Can he cast it for no effect? Or is he stuck forever and ever?

I hope that new FAQ will take into consideration these problems. Monk has been really toned down and that was correct, because adding total Craft was ludicrous (even with exception of Craft granted by objects), but he can't use any Weapons now. No Holy Lance, no Runesword, no Fate Stealer or other interesting Weapons from the Reaper Deck. He definitely should be able to use the Warhorse properly and Psionic Blast in addition to his Inner Belief, for a maximum +9 (a nice situation, but not that likely to happen and that will only last a Combat).



#20 8janek8

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 12:27 AM

Monk: "Your inner belief allows you to add you Craft value to your Strength during battle.". So, you don't have to use your inner belief and you may cast the Psionic Blast instead.






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