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Infantry Armour Value 1


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#1 Chimaera

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 01:47 PM

I was just wondering what players thoughts were on Infantry Armour Value 1 was. There seems to be the inevitable escalation in the upwards direction but I would actually like to see some love for value 1. WIth the new points system lower cost squads/heroes could be a nice way of rounding out you army list. They could also maybe have a standard movement rate of 2 on one action giving them a move value of 3 as a USP on a Move + Move and get an additional boost if also joined by an AV1 hero. Other ideal candidates could be tank commanders (could have a tank boosting skill and be able to bail out on a tank destroyed result), scientists & engineers types would also be good candidates. Looking at Rosie's clothing she should have been AV1 in my opinion. Anyway I hope FFG don't forget about AV1 in all the normal creep towards bigger and better. The only thing FFG have to be careful on is they don't inadvertantly tilt the balance totally in favour of Swarm lists as the goto army list. What does everyone else think on this subject.

 

 

 



#2 Major Mishap

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 07:48 PM

I've been using these Tamiya squads which work well, I made them as there seemed to be a long delay in releasing new models to keep up with my wants.  Even though I have these A1 squads and normal tanks, I rarely use them because I want to use the sci-fi type squads and walkers.  If you wanted to use pure WW2 stuff then why not play WW2 instead of DT?  This is what FFG are probably thinking to, so pure WW" is probably at the bottom of the 'to do' list.



#3 Chimaera

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 08:50 PM

Major Mishap you seem to have misunderstood me. I don't want to play WW2, I actually like the DT setting. It just seems pointless having the AV1 stat if you are not going to use it. While you may like heading more towards the Sci-Fi element there will be others who may like to stay before this timeline or indeed still use AV1 squads even once the Vrill arrive or maybe as some sort of hold out scenario vs superior opposition enemy force? The other key point you have missed is the point cost variation under the new AP system. Lower cost troops/heroes would fill a niche in this system. AV1 also has a use for certain characters/heroes as mentioned. The tank commander is the  most obvious one. My point around AV1 is really more about rounding out the forces available in DT. Surely even after the Vrill arrive & the Allied/Axis forces have much superior troops available. I doubt they Allied/Axis forces would be able to fit out all units with the superior armour/weaponary. AV1 does have a function to perform in DT and should in my opinion.

I like what you have done with the cards/models for your earlier games/product drought. You actually made me think of something else with your post. This is actually the DT team could actually be missing a trick. This is if they did produce some nice AV1 models I am sure WW2 gamers would also potentially pick them up & my bet is they could actually be quite popular as they have produced some great looking models so far & I am sure this could be replicated with the AV1 troops. You also mentioned the standard tanks you use and here is the other neat trick they could pull off. All they would need is to produce a standard Sherman and all of a sudden it would have a number of interchangeable turrets. The Axis would require a bit more investment. Maybe this would be more of a proposition for the Dust Game team rather than FFG.



#4 Major Mishap

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 12:06 AM

I doubt that if WW2 gamers would buy them as the DT models don't really fit in with current 28mm WW2 styles and are a lot more expensive.  Bolt Action plastics are 25 models for £20 and DT only 5 for £12.



#5 Peacekeeper_b

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 01:03 AM

I really doubt FFG's position on AV1 is "if  you want normals go give someone else your money". I do think Chimaera is onto something there with scientists, engineers, pilots and tankers as AV 1 blokes.

I dont think AV1 has to be an actual unit/squad/hero you can buy or add to your forces, but it could be used in scenario specific cases.

Example. Operation Breakout. The Allies have to liberate and shield prisoners from a Axis factory. The Axis have to prevent as many of the prisoners as possible from escaping. The prisoners are AV1 no weapon line, move 1 and health 5. If they get off the board theough the Ally entry points the Allies get 5 victory points per health remaining.

Example 2. Repair Team. A squad of 5 mechanics who can repair vehicles. They cost 15 points (maybe only 10), are armed with only basic pistols or rifles and when adjacent to a damaged vehicles they can "repair it". Each member of the team rolls 1 die (unless they are shooting) and on a hit result the vehicle recovers 1 damage. Destroyed vehicles cannot be fixed.

Example 3. Medical Corps. Same as repair team, but can heal a squad that isnt below half strength if that squad hasnt moved since its last injury.

Example 4. Combat Engineers. Can build/destroy cover/terrain and so forth.

Example 5. Civilians/refugees and so forth.

Example 6. Bushes, foilage, light woodline that may block line of sight or provide soft cover or restrict movement. Make it AV 1 and let units destroy it.

 



#6 Chimaera

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 01:34 AM

I am not saying AV1 should be the goto choice of troops/Heroes or that in same way any progress up the Tech ladder should be stopped. What I do think is there is a niche for AV1 (some good examples from Peacekeeper_b) that should be accomodated. Once again there is no point having AV1 on the stat line if there is never going to be any product for it. AV1 will also round out the AP system a lot better by providing some lower value troops/squads/heroes.



#7 Grand Inquisitor Fulminarex

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 12:50 PM

Well, I like the idea of lighter infantry, but I see them as being 7 or even 10 figure squads. AV1 may seem weak, but if they are in Hard Cover, they could be very effective.

Major, shouldn't your officer in the LSMG squad have a pistol he can use? Bazooka Joe has a .45, with some good stats, surely a P38 or PPK would at least give this officer a 1/1.

However, I would give up all the A1 troops for the Axis Rocket troops.



#8 Major Mishap

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 07:42 PM

Grand Inquisitor Fulminarex said:

Well, I like the idea of lighter infantry, but I see them as being 7 or even 10 figure squads. AV1 may seem weak, but if they are in Hard Cover, they could be very effective.

Major, shouldn't your officer in the LSMG squad have a pistol he can use? Bazooka Joe has a .45, with some good stats, surely a P38 or PPK would at least give this officer a 1/1.

However, I would give up all the A1 troops for the Axis Rocket troops.

He's not an officer like Joe, I just count him as a normal squad leader with rifle.  For 1 point a unit they do not need any more models and I doubt if you could put 10 models on a sqaure and if you could it would look so wrong standing B2B.  1pt for 5 models works and looks just fine.



#9 Peacekeeper_b

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 10:16 PM

Major Mishap said:

Grand Inquisitor Fulminarex said:

 

Well, I like the idea of lighter infantry, but I see them as being 7 or even 10 figure squads. AV1 may seem weak, but if they are in Hard Cover, they could be very effective.

Major, shouldn't your officer in the LSMG squad have a pistol he can use? Bazooka Joe has a .45, with some good stats, surely a P38 or PPK would at least give this officer a 1/1.

However, I would give up all the A1 troops for the Axis Rocket troops.

 

 

He's not an officer like Joe, I just count him as a normal squad leader with rifle.  For 1 point a unit they do not need any more models and I doubt if you could put 10 models on a sqaure and if you could it would look so wrong standing B2B.  1pt for 5 models works and looks just fine.

Is that 1 AP in the old system or the new system?



#10 Algesan

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 12:23 AM

Has to be 1 point in the old system.

Well, with a couple more threads asking questions, I guess I'm not such an idiot as some suggested.

"Shut up and go play World War 2 if you don't want to play exclusively with DT-style Weird War 2 stuff."

You know, that is a freaking insult, so I'll return it: "If you don't have a clue about how to play with real troops using real tactics and your ability to handle complex tactical situations with multiple troop choices, don't play wargames"

More options = good thing for list building army games.



#11 Peacekeeper_b

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 01:21 AM

Algesan said:

Has to be 1 point in the old system.

Well, with a couple more threads asking questions, I guess I'm not such an idiot as some suggested.

"Shut up and go play World War 2 if you don't want to play exclusively with DT-style Weird War 2 stuff."

You know, that is a freaking insult, so I'll return it: "If you don't have a clue about how to play with real troops using real tactics and your ability to handle complex tactical situations with multiple troop choices, don't play wargames"

More options = good thing for list building army games.

Well I dont think that is exactly what people were saying. The feeling I got was that people were just pointing out that there are options to play normal WW2 in other games. A few have stated that normals have no place in DT/DW. And maybe a few were as blatant as you say.

But it seem the community is split. Some want to see some normals thrown in, others would rather have more battletech vehicles to play WW2 Robotech. 

I dont mind walkers/robots, I just dont want the game to become Mighty Morphin Power Rangers the Board Game. I liek Dust Tactics/Dust Warfare mainly for the setting/background. A background that does have normals in it I would imagine.



#12 Major Mishap

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 01:50 AM

1pt with old money so 10pts with the new.

Don't think anyone is being insuting at all :/ Some want AP 1, some want WWW2 models - nothing wrong with having a difference of opinion.  It's a WWW2 game which is what the attraction is for most people I would have thought.



#13 Peacekeeper_b

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 03:49 AM

Major Mishap said:

1pt with old money so 10pts with the new.

Don't think anyone is being insuting at all :/ Some want AP 1, some want WWW2 models - nothing wrong with having a difference of opinion.  It's a WWW2 game which is what the attraction is for most people I would have thought.

Exactly, the attraction is all of the above. World War 2 and Weird. Not one over the other, at least for me.



#14 Chimaera

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 06:21 AM

 

Major Mishap said:

1pt with old money so 10pts with the new.

Don't think anyone is being insuting at all :/ Some want AP 1, some want WWW2 models - nothing wrong with having a difference of opinion.  It's a WWW2 game which is what the attraction is for most people I would have thought.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Exactly, the attraction is all of the above. World War 2 and Weird. Not one over the other, at least for me.

Chimaera says 

Seconded! WW2 with a twist works fine for me also. I am not to sure where this WW2 demand has come in. The request was always for AV1 options.

I don't know the science behind the costing but I would have a stab that the Gunners equivalent in AV1 would be circa 14pts instead of 20pts for the AV2 version. Of course they don't have to be the same as the AV2 squads and this is just an example. I do think the squad size would need to stay the same at 5 so the cost doesn't  just remain the same as the AV2 option. The whole point is they are a lower quality substitute at a lower cost and allow for the AV1 stat line to be recognised/played in the game.

Edit - not quite sure how the quote text went wrong? Maybe I will post this again to avoid confusion.



#15 Chimaera

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 06:54 AM

Peacekeeper_b said:

Major Mishap said:

 

1pt with old money so 10pts with the new.

Don't think anyone is being insuting at all :/ Some want AP 1, some want WWW2 models - nothing wrong with having a difference of opinion.  It's a WWW2 game which is what the attraction is for most people I would have thought.

 

 

Exactly, the attraction is all of the above. World War 2 and Weird. Not one over the other, at least for me.

Seconded! WW2 with a twist works fine for me also. I am not to sure where this WW2 demand has come in (I cannot see it in any post). The request was always for AV1 options.

 

I don't know the science behind the costing but I would have a stab that the Gunners equivalent in AV1 would be circa 14pts instead of 20pts for the AV2 version. Of course they don't have to be the same as the AV2 squads and this is just an example. I do think the squad size would need to stay the same at 5 so the cost doesn't just remain the same as the AV2 option. The whole point is they are a lower quality substitute at a lower cost and allow for the AV1 stat line to be recognised/played in the game.

 



#16 Algesan

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 08:19 PM

Chimaera said:

Peacekeeper_b said:

 

Major Mishap said:

 

1pt with old money so 10pts with the new.

Don't think anyone is being insuting at all :/ Some want AP 1, some want WWW2 models - nothing wrong with having a difference of opinion.  It's a WWW2 game which is what the attraction is for most people I would have thought.

 

 

Exactly, the attraction is all of the above. World War 2 and Weird. Not one over the other, at least for me.

 

 

Seconded! WW2 with a twist works fine for me also. I am not to sure where this WW2 demand has come in (I cannot see it in any post). The request was always for AV1 options.

 

I don't know the science behind the costing but I would have a stab that the Gunners equivalent in AV1 would be circa 14pts instead of 20pts for the AV2 version. Of course they don't have to be the same as the AV2 squads and this is just an example. I do think the squad size would need to stay the same at 5 so the cost doesn't just remain the same as the AV2 option. The whole point is they are a lower quality substitute at a lower cost and allow for the AV1 stat line to be recognised/played in the game.

 

 

The case is threefold:

1)  It would be nice to be able to try/use official lists of "normal" troops.  It supplements the game and gives it a relatively simple expansion.

2)  It would allow earlier introduction of other factions and/or subfactions by recycling 1/48 models made by other companies

3)  Since it would just require a card pack to go with the models in play, it is a low outlay, high percentage profit for FFG.  Yes, they don't get to make the extra money for making all of their own stuff for sale, but they don't have the outlay.



#17 Grand Inquisitor Fulminarex

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 05:06 AM

If you go to Dust Studios they routinely show pics of mechs next to regular Axis tanks and trucks etc. So they do exist in the Dust world side by side.

HOWEVER, if Dust Studios is not releasing the normal WW2 stuff, it is not FFG's fault. FFG relies on Dust Studios for what comes out, not the other way around.



#18 Dogged

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 10:21 AM

Mmm... Maybe when Warfare is out they decide to try out AV1 infantry...

 



#19 Algesan

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 12:06 PM

Grand Inquisitor Fulminarex said:

If you go to Dust Studios they routinely show pics of mechs next to regular Axis tanks and trucks etc. So they do exist in the Dust world side by side.

HOWEVER, if Dust Studios is not releasing the normal WW2 stuff, it is not FFG's fault. FFG relies on Dust Studios for what comes out, not the other way around.

Okay, now this is an interesting comment.  You are saying that FFG can release nothing except what Dust Studios authorizes, but FFG can sit around with their thumb up their bum on something Dust Studios has already released for as long as they want?  Because to be an official unit for use in FFG-sanctioned games, it must have an official FFG unit card.  So if you are correct in your comment, then I really, really don't want to know what kind of charlie foxtrot the deal between DS & FFG is.  Way too much potential for them to shaft each other.

 



#20 DoomOnYou72

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 01:46 AM

Algesan said:

Grand Inquisitor Fulminarex said:

 

If you go to Dust Studios they routinely show pics of mechs next to regular Axis tanks and trucks etc. So they do exist in the Dust world side by side.

HOWEVER, if Dust Studios is not releasing the normal WW2 stuff, it is not FFG's fault. FFG relies on Dust Studios for what comes out, not the other way around.

 

 

Okay, now this is an interesting comment.  You are saying that FFG can release nothing except what Dust Studios authorizes, but FFG can sit around with their thumb up their bum on something Dust Studios has already released for as long as they want?  Because to be an official unit for use in FFG-sanctioned games, it must have an official FFG unit card.  So if you are correct in your comment, then I really, really don't want to know what kind of charlie foxtrot the deal between DS & FFG is.  Way too much potential for them to shaft each other.

 

FFG is just the publisher. Dust Studios is the creator/ writer of the game. While as the publisher FFG does have some control over the content and direction of products (Warfare is a good example of this)  Dust Studios is responsible for the rules, content, art, models, etc. If you look in the credits of each book you can see who did what.  FFGs main responsibilty as a publisher is producing/ funding, packaging, distribution, marketing- getting it into retail outlets as a sellable product so both sides make money.  This is more than likely why FFG was tapped at the last minute rather than AEG. Bottom line is they have deeper pockets and a better distribution network for a game that requires constant new releases.

As FFGs business model is to support 3rd party retail outlets this is why you dont see cards for the models that are only available on the Dust site (except for a couple older models that still have a card from a beta version of the rules). Im fairly certain both parties want to get all the models to the general retail market but the main limiting factors in those kits are costs and the resin components. Resin components are generally not suitable to mass release as the molds wear out to quick.  As soon as a plastic version is made it would be a safe bet that the model will see a general release (a good example of this would be the Jagd Luther- the only component not seen in plastic at this time is the guns- the heavies use the same armored front end so I would expect to see it sooner rather than later).

As for the potential to shaft each other most business models work this way unless a company is the sole producer, manufacturer, and publisher. It is usually in neither sides best interest to screw each other over as this is bad business.






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