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Warfare New Rules Resolutions Question/Concern


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#1 Peacekeeper_b

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 08:34 AM

Using the existing dice for Dust Tactics to me seems limiting on creating new rules, such as Morale and such. You only have two results on the die and therefore two major categories to give to unit to differentiate thier ability levels. You have pretty much Hard (need a hit result, 1 in 3 chance) and easy (you need a miss result, 2 in 3 chance).

The other option is to use multiple dice and needing one hit (or miss) for success, such as how Advanced Reactive Fire and Superior Reactive Fire work. I am certain I read somewhere that to prevent being "pinned" or "suppressed" the unit needs to roll a hit result. In the future will we see units that have Strong Morale or Heroic Morale that allow them to roll two or even three dice? Or that flip the results (hit is a miss, miss is a hit)? Or a combination of both?

Will heroes leading a unit get an extra dice to roll to keep morale?

I am pretty sure that these questions are either already addressed in the rules being tested/worked on, or are not a issue (as in they dont have morale rules etc etc) so Im just trying to get a grasp on how the game is expanding beyond tactics, beyond the health, move, armor, weapon line, cover and skill stats a unit has.



#2 KAM

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 06:54 AM

Hello,

I agree. The specialized d6 die is clunky, and one of the things I think is most limiting about Dust Tactics.  Continuing its use in Dust Warfare is a strike against it in my view.  As you say--you can use multiple dice and require X successes or Y Blanks.  However...clunky.

I can't see any reason other dice couldn't be used where it makes more sense.

KAM



#3 Peacekeeper_b

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 08:47 AM

Its more then that, Kam. I.M.O. in order to add real rules for morale/leadership (other then just overall generic ones, such as "need a hit result") you need to add another stat, or skill to show the difference between squads, heroes, units. Certainly Zombies react differently then a BBQ squad when hit by a flame thrower or artillery round or sniper. Same with Gorillas, and while it is easy to just state that Blutkreuz Zombies roll 2 dice for morale or are immune to immoral it does continue with the clunkiness you mentioned earlier.

I hope morale isnt based off cover status. I also hope it isnt based off armor class.

The best I can see it right now, without adding a new stat to the staline (and thereby needing new cards) I would base it off reactive fire (need a hit result on a single die).

So normal troops get 1 Die.

Heroes get 2 Die.

Blutkreuz Apes get 2 Die.

Blutkreuz Zombies get 3 Die.

I would even say: Medal of Honor gets 2 or 3 Die.

I dont want it to be based off Armor Class as Armor Class is already factored in, as far as I can see, as the only example/rumor I saw so far for Morale as taking a test as a result of taking damage.

However, it also brings to mind the NCO of the squad factor. Each AC 2 squad has a special miniature that is obviously the Sergeant or other leader, generally he is the bloke who is pointing. If you make that a factor, a rule, in the game, you get two bonus rules/effects to add to the game. One, while the NCO is alive, the squad gets 2 Dice for morale. And second, it gives the sniper a choice as to who to kill other then just waxing heavy weapons guys. Killing the big gun reduces fire power, killing the NCO reduced leadership. It also gives the player controlling the unit the choice. Maybe he doesnt want to lose his leader when he takes a hit, so he has to decide who goes, a troop with a panzerfaust that hasnt fired it yet? A heavy Weapon? His Leader? etc etc....



#4 KAM

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 03:19 AM

Hello,

I don't disagree. Beyond the use of this specialty (limited) die, and the hoops you have to jump through to make it seem less limited (using more dice), which I dislike, you are right--the lack of a morale stat is another limiting factor.

This is an extension of the use of the existing Dust Tactics rules, which apparently uses the same units, and as such stat cards.  I can't say for sure, but that's what the demo was using.  The choice to use the existing game RULES instead of miniatures is the issue.

I'll have to see how it turns out, but there seems to be two possibilities: 

1) Add a bunch of supplemental rules to make up for the deficiency in the DT Stats--resulting in a clumsy "tacked on" system.

2) Forgo these sorts of components in the game.

I hope there is a third choice that brings this all together, that I've not thought of, because neither of the above are good.

KAM



#5 Peacekeeper_b

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 07:12 AM

KAM said:

Hello,

I don't disagree. Beyond the use of this specialty (limited) die, and the hoops you have to jump through to make it seem less limited (using more dice), which I dislike, you are right--the lack of a morale stat is another limiting factor.

This is an extension of the use of the existing Dust Tactics rules, which apparently uses the same units, and as such stat cards.  I can't say for sure, but that's what the demo was using.  The choice to use the existing game RULES instead of miniatures is the issue.

I'll have to see how it turns out, but there seems to be two possibilities: 

1) Add a bunch of supplemental rules to make up for the deficiency in the DT Stats--resulting in a clumsy "tacked on" system.

2) Forgo these sorts of components in the game.

I hope there is a third choice that brings this all together, that I've not thought of, because neither of the above are good.

KAM

The third choice is also annoying. Release new cards that have any extra stat needed on them. Release a bundle/pack of them so we can once again repurchase all previous cards/units at once, and include 2 cards in each miniature box in the futre, on for Dust Tactics, one for Dust Warfare.

Or a fourth choice, forego the cards and just publish statlines in the book and future supplements.

I also hope that in addition to letting heroes have cover, the addition of reducing the number of weapons you can fire per action (one per model in a squad, two for a hero, all for a walker).



#6 deedob

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 01:26 AM

My guess is that Dust Warfare may not even require the use of the Tactics dices.

Dust Warfare looks like it will be *only* a rulebook. I doubt they will provide dices stuck within the confines of the rulebook to play Dust Warfare and i don't see an announcement about a Dust Warfare / Tactics dice product to play Dust Warfare.

Since Warfare is a separate products from Tactics (that uses the same minis), i doubt they will force people to buy a Tactics core set just to have the dices to play Warfare.

So they will either:

a) use regular dice.

b) make a rule to use regular dices as proxies (hit on 5-6, miss on 1-4) as a general rule.

c) not make use of the tactics dices at all.

d) publish a dice expansion for Warfare / Tactics.

 

"Here's a new game that requires special dices you can't play without buying another 80$ game to get the dice" doesn't sound too great to get people interested in a game.



#7 deedob

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 01:27 AM

My guess is that Dust Warfare may not even require the use of the Tactics dices.

Dust Warfare looks like it will be *only* a rulebook. I doubt they will provide dices stuck within the confines of the rulebook to play Dust Warfare and i don't see an announcement about a Dust Warfare / Tactics dice product to play Dust Warfare.

Since Warfare is a separate products from Tactics (that uses the same minis), i doubt they will force people to buy a Tactics core set just to have the dices to play Warfare.

So they will either:

a) make a rule to use regular dices as proxies (hit on 5-6, miss on 1-4) as a general rule.

b) not make use of the tactics dices at all.

c) publish a dice expansion for Warfare / Tactics.

 

"Here's a new game that requires special dices you can't play without buying another 80$ game to get the dice" doesn't sound too great to get people interested in a game.



#8 deedob

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 01:28 AM

... double-post.

... sorry :(



#9 KAM

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 01:50 AM

Peacekeeper_b said:

The third choice is also annoying. Release new cards that have any extra stat needed on them. Release a bundle/pack of them so we can once again repurchase all previous cards/units at once, and include 2 cards in each miniature box in the futre, on for Dust Tactics, one for Dust Warfare.

Or a fourth choice, forego the cards and just publish statlines in the book and future supplements.

I also hope that in addition to letting heroes have cover, the addition of reducing the number of weapons you can fire per action (one per model in a squad, two for a hero, all for a walker).

I would be perfectly fine with a Rebundled Pack, or just stat lines in the Dust Warfare book(s)

KAM



#10 KAM

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 01:53 AM

deedob said:

My guess is that Dust Warfare may not even require the use of the Tactics dices.

Dust Warfare looks like it will be *only* a rulebook. I doubt they will provide dices stuck within the confines of the rulebook to play Dust Warfare and i don't see an announcement about a Dust Warfare / Tactics dice product to play Dust Warfare.

Since Warfare is a separate products from Tactics (that uses the same minis), i doubt they will force people to buy a Tactics core set just to have the dices to play Warfare.

So they will either:

a) make a rule to use regular dices as proxies (hit on 5-6, miss on 1-4) as a general rule.

b) not make use of the tactics dices at all.

c) publish a dice expansion for Warfare / Tactics.

 

"Here's a new game that requires special dices you can't play without buying another 80$ game to get the dice" doesn't sound too great to get people interested in a game.

Well, if the Demos at GenCon are an indication, it does use those dice.  Of course, they are easy to proxy, but it seems their marketing plan is to have complete crossover, rather than appealing to two different segments of players. 

Honestly, I really don't care if I needed to buy a DT starter set to get things needed to play.  What I care about is whether the mechanic is good.  Dust Tactics isn't bad, but it is limited.  There are several things about it, that I just don't prefer, so the apparent nearness of DW to DT isn't thrilling me at all.

Who knows how close the "BETA" demos were to the real thing?

KAM



#11 Major Mishap

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 08:58 AM

deedob said:

My guess is that Dust Warfare may not even require the use of the Tactics dices.

Dust Warfare looks like it will be *only* a rulebook. I doubt they will provide dices stuck within the confines of the rulebook to play Dust Warfare and i don't see an announcement about a Dust Warfare / Tactics dice product to play Dust Warfare.

Since Warfare is a separate products from Tactics (that uses the same minis), i doubt they will force people to buy a Tactics core set just to have the dices to play Warfare.

So they will either:

a) make a rule to use regular dices as proxies (hit on 5-6, miss on 1-4) as a general rule.

b) not make use of the tactics dices at all.

c) publish a dice expansion for Warfare / Tactics.

 

"Here's a new game that requires special dices you can't play without buying another 80$ game to get the dice" doesn't sound too great to get people interested in a game.

 

But why would Dust Warfare players NOT want to buy the starter sets, they are a bargain for the models alone.



#12 Peacekeeper_b

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 10:00 AM

Major Mishap said:

But why would Dust Warfare players NOT want to buy the starter sets, they are a bargain for the models alone.

Its not a question of why should they not WANT to, its a question of why should they HAVE to?

Yes, sure, the new revised set is set for $60 or so dollars and includes 6 units, 2 walkers and 2 heroes. Which is great, especially with the 6 dice (needs more) and the rules and some terrain (but not enough) and so forth.

But to play Dust Warfare you will need more terrain and more units. As you will only get 3 units of each side, 1 walker of each side and 1 hero of each side. It is ideal if you are buying it with a friend/fellow gamer, but for the same price on Miniature Market you culd buy 6 units of one side. Sure you wonldt get the walkers or heroes or dice (and you need the dice) but everything else you lose you dont need (rules for Tacts, poster maps, two tanks traps, twpo ammo crates) and so forth.

What would be cool is if FFG would package a Allied Starter Set and a Axis Starter Set, each with 3 units, 2 walkers and 1 hero (much like the Dust Tactics original set, perhaps the same figs) and then put in the 2 tank traps, 2 ammo crates and 6 dice and charge $50.

I do understand where you are coming from Major Mishap, it is a good deal IMHO (especially since I split it with a friend), but the dice should be available individually.



#13 Dcal12

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 03:48 AM

With only six dice in the Revised Core set, I bet they come out with a dice pack.



#14 reptilebro1

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 08:21 AM

My understanding and interpritation of what the rules will be like is that something like morale and vehicle damage chart will be roll x amount of dice and those results will be a chart thing. So maybe it will go along the lines of armor class=amount of dice and having a hero in the squad will give you either a reroll or extra dice?



#15 Peacekeeper_b

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 08:57 AM

reptilebro1 said:

My understanding and interpritation of what the rules will be like is that something like morale and vehicle damage chart will be roll x amount of dice and those results will be a chart thing. So maybe it will go along the lines of armor class=amount of dice and having a hero in the squad will give you either a reroll or extra dice?

I coudl see that. But dont like the notion that better armor class equates better morale. These guys get hurt less and then have better chance to resist fear? Yeah, to some degree it makes sense, but overall I think it creates very little space for difference in units.

I like the general notion of the simplicity of you need a hit result or you fall back/get pinned. And I like the idea of adding extra skills such as "Brave: Role two dice, need one hit" and "Heroic: Roll three dice, need one hit" with a hero allowing allowing a bonus die and "NCOs" allowing a reroll of a single dice once per game (per squad perhaps). And Im sure the Command skill and skills of Command Squads could be expanded.

 



#16 reptilebro1

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 09:41 AM

Peacekeeper_b said:

reptilebro1 said:

 

My understanding and interpritation of what the rules will be like is that something like morale and vehicle damage chart will be roll x amount of dice and those results will be a chart thing. So maybe it will go along the lines of armor class=amount of dice and having a hero in the squad will give you either a reroll or extra dice?

 

 

I coudl see that. But dont like the notion that better armor class equates better morale. These guys get hurt less and then have better chance to resist fear? Yeah, to some degree it makes sense, but overall I think it creates very little space for difference in units.

 

Maybe instead of AC it will be based off the amouunt of minatures left in said designated squad.



#17 Major Mishap

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 11:24 AM

I don't see the need for any  morale rules all the troops we are using are elites anyway, so any difference in moral would be minimal and units don't last long enough to worry about it, most being obliterated in one or two shots at them. 



#18 Peacekeeper_b

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 11:52 AM

Major Mishap said:

I don't see the need for any  morale rules all the troops we are using are elites anyway, so any difference in moral would be minimal and units don't last long enough to worry about it, most being obliterated in one or two shots at them. 

That sounds kind of, well, dull and boring. I imagine in Dust Tactics this is a fact of life, but in Dust Warfare I get the feeling that movement and cover wil be even more important and survival even more so important.

It is true that these are all elites and veterans (the words Ranger and Grenadier seem to confirm that), but I cant accept that Grenadiers and Gorillas and Zombies all use the same stat/value for morale.

Also, its not like I invented or made up this concept. It was in one of the "what we saw of DW at GenCon" posts. Where units had tomake "morale" checks to avoid falling back/being pinned.

I think if the game goes too simple on morale/leadership and so forth it makes infantry even less interesting and if it goes with the notion that "units don't last long enough to worry about it, most being obliterated in one or two shots at them" then it will become RoboNazi vs RoboUSA and be a very balnd game.

"Hey nice grenadiers, looking good on the paint jobs. Sadly, I have ten walkers in my army, so good luck!"

I think DW is supposed to be a slightly more "tactical" and "complicated" version of Dust Tactics and there wil be ways to keep your troops alive longer (better cover rules, line of sight rules, medics and so forth).

But the overall concern is not just about morale. Its about special resolutions using "specialty dice".



#19 rwwingate

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 12:21 PM

I think the issue here is audience.  Looking at the tidbits that have been thrown out there, FFG isn't going to try to create an complex grognard style game.  They seem to want to port DT into DW, throw in a few extra rules put it out there.  The lack of expansive stat lines and the use of the DT dice hints that that is the direction they want to go.

It's not necessarily a bad thing.  If it's done correctly, it can still be fun.



#20 Peacekeeper_b

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 02:13 PM

Well RWWingate, I think there is plenty of ways they could go with using most of the current rules as the start. The primary way is to redevelope the units as book entries over card based stats. The addition of extra skills for units can solve many of the problems.

Even with the existing dice as a limitation there are ways around its inherit foibles. For example, there is nothing preventing them from creating a third degree of cover. Soft, needs a hit result. Medium, needs a miss result. Hard, needs a miss result, failures can be rerolled and then succeed on a hit result.

Or to differentiate good markmen from average (and we all know, these are all elite troops thus far and are not joe average trooper) they could have Marksman as a skill. Allows the reroll of a missed shot per round, per shooter.

And I hate it when people use the term grognard like we all want to sit down and play a game of DUST AVALON HILL! Im not looking for rules that affect my weapon line based on time of day, temperature, direction and wind speed. But I am looking for something more then just the rules from Revised Dust Tactics elaborated a bit, made into inches and then covering line of light. I want some table top wargame rules. Movements, cover, obstacles, line of sight, orders, morale, and so forth. And I think if FFG was going for a more "Dust Tactics Expanded" game they wouldnt have hired Andy Chambers to do it.

The bringing in of such a veteran (as some would say Charismatic Legend and Champion of Table Top Wargames) like Andy Chambers reflects a serious concept of a real wargame here. Undoubtedly a lot of the demo shown at GenCon was a toned down version with many elements of Dust Tactics thrown in for ease of teaching the demo players and getting it all moving fast and furious to get as many people exposed as possible.

I think the reason FFG hasnt released "normal" stats for the game thus far is they are trying to set up Dust Warfare to be a serious contender to take on other table top games, Not dethrone them, but contend with. By releasing Dust Tactics first, it enabled them to pre-create a market for the wargame. Now when the game is released, people can jump right in and not wait.

I look forward to Dust Warfare (and future Dust releated games, especially a RPG). And I will be greatly disappointed if they ignore the Grognard Questions.






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