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Disappointed in game design


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#1 Sythion

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 06:55 AM

I realize that DQ is meant to be a more random and frivolous game. I actually purchased it because of that.

However, I am hugely disappointed by this game's actual design.

I understand that there are few decisions to be made, and am happy with that. However, this game is designed that some of the decisions are just plain bad.

Because the dragon horde treasure cards are so much more valuable than stuff you find in the dungeon it is never a good idea to search corpses or crypts. The aid cards (unstable potion and rope) are rare and hardly beneficial, and the harm cards are real bad.

For the same reason it's never a good idea to search unless you'd have to backtrack 2 or more squares to progress towards the horde.

The only option of the game which should ever really be considered is the catacombs, and then only if you have enough health and are the proper distance away.

Basically the most solid gameplay is this: ignore everything and grab some treasure and leave.

That's just bad game design.

I am disappoint.



#2 Maerimydra

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 07:18 AM

Sythion said:

I realize that DQ is meant to be a more random and frivolous game. I actually purchased it because of that.

However, I am hugely disappointed by this game's actual design.

I understand that there are few decisions to be made, and am happy with that. However, this game is designed that some of the decisions are just plain bad.

Because the dragon horde treasure cards are so much more valuable than stuff you find in the dungeon it is never a good idea to search corpses or crypts. The aid cards (unstable potion and rope) are rare and hardly beneficial, and the harm cards are real bad.

For the same reason it's never a good idea to search unless you'd have to backtrack 2 or more squares to progress towards the horde.

The only option of the game which should ever really be considered is the catacombs, and then only if you have enough health and are the proper distance away.

Basically the most solid gameplay is this: ignore everything and grab some treasure and leave.

That's just bad game design.

I am disappoint.

I agree that there should be more benefical stuff to find on your way toward the treasure chamber. Searching already costs you time, a very important resource in this game, so there should be a trade-off for it.

However, searching corpses and crypts is a free action so it can be a good idea to do so when you have enough health at your disposal.



#3 Sythion

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 07:54 AM

Crypt deck: 15 cards, 4 bad cards, 3 potions (which are worthless in my opinion. They are more likely to do harm than good), 4 gold coins, which unless its an incredibly close match, are worthless. More harm than good

Corpse deck: 15 cards, 4 bad cards, 3 ropes (rarely useful), 1 worthless potion, 3 gold coins. More harm than good

Search deck: More worthless potions, coins, and some of the worst encounters in the game. More harm than good unless you need a way out of an area really badly (approx 35% chance of escaping, so becomes worth it if not searching will cause you to backtrack more than 2 squares).



#4 Kartigan

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 01:17 PM

Sythion said:

Crypt deck: 15 cards, 4 bad cards, 3 potions (which are worthless in my opinion. They are more likely to do harm than good), 4 gold coins, which unless its an incredibly close match, are worthless. More harm than good

Corpse deck: 15 cards, 4 bad cards, 3 ropes (rarely useful), 1 worthless potion, 3 gold coins. More harm than good

Search deck: More worthless potions, coins, and some of the worst encounters in the game. More harm than good unless you need a way out of an area really badly (approx 35% chance of escaping, so becomes worth it if not searching will cause you to backtrack more than 2 squares).

Heh, I've played this game quite a bit now and nearly everytime someone has one it has been the 1 person who managed to escape and they had some small piece of treasure they managed to scrape up from the Crypt, Corpse, or Search deck.  I've only seen someone make it to the Dragon's Chamber and then out alive again like once or twice and they've always won.  But then I don't have a problem with that, after all they've made it clear to the Dragon's chamber, shouldn't they trounce anyone who happened to pick up some scrap from a corpse?  My only complaint is the whole "combat is pointless" thing, I wish there was some small reward for beating a monster.



#5 Sythion

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 04:42 PM

The reason no one is making it to the dragons horde is because they are searching, pulling crypt cards and pulling corpse cards.



#6 Maerimydra

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 06:27 PM

Sythion said:

The reason no one is making it to the dragons horde is because they are searching, pulling crypt cards and pulling corpse cards.

Or because some of them are stuck because of a rotating chamber or rotating corridors or a portcullis that leads to a dead end and when they finally find a secret door, it's already the time to get the f*ck out of the dungeon. In other words, all those useless reward you find by searching outside of the treasure chamber are a consolation price for those who didn't make it to the treasure chamber because they needed to find a secret door. But, like you said, it's 100% useless to search if you don't need to find a secret door.



#7 Skowza

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 09:39 AM

Hmm, everyone has similar complaints about this game, is it actually fun to play though?  Looking for something to get for the guy who wants to eventually get every game ever published...



#8 Tromdial

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 09:15 PM

I do enjoy the game, however I sympathize with this topic's chief complaints. I use variant rules in mine, as described in "A Question Before Buying" topic. If you would like to try it out, I feel it's worthwhile and a variant also could solve the frustration over useless Crypt and Corpse cards too. It is too bad the game did not come better designed but for what it is, I have enjoyed my investment as the room tiles create such a fun labyrinth and the race to get out with the loot is intense and gratifying when done.



#9 Mighty Martin

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 05:46 AM

 I can fully understand where you guys are coming from, I havn't played the new version yet, but when Games Workshop first brought it to the UK it was just as deadly as it seems to be now, I can't wait to play it and see how many times and in how many different ways I can get myself killed, just like in the good ole days :D.



#10 jhagen

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 09:16 AM

if this game is the same as the Games Workshop one from 1985. The game is supposed to be frivolous and fun, like robo-rally... do not work over the game design just get your treasure and get out in time lol.



#11 JCHendee

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 04:58 AM

I have to agree with both sides on this issue, though this game did not go over well at all with my crew. Part of that was the combat system that felt like a separate game within a game that didn't work through characters more than limiting what was available for the player vs. player action. I was indifferent to it, once it was learned, but it was never accepted by any that I played with. On the other hand...

DQ has always been the "laugh at death" game of games. Players of old have always accepted that they might die as often as 75% of the time.  It may be that the needs and desires of players today have changed and this is no longer sought by as many players for what it is. No one should expect to survive a game of DQ and yes both striving and dumb luck will be needed if you do.

On the third hand, the slant of what is found in any form of search (room, corpse, chest, etc.) has lost the nature of a dungeon stomp. There is no way a bunch of dead adventurers (corpses) would be carrying so much harmful stuff. If used, it would have been used up in killing them; if not used, well, you get the point. Adventurers bring stuff with them that is helpful; if they get killed, its usually because they didn't have a chance to use that stuff.  Then again, the denizens of the dungeon probably strip the bodies, leaving the bad stuff if they know its bad or risky. They'd take most of the good stuff for their own use.

Of course this is all a justfication, as it's doubtful that much thought actually went into those decks.  Similar but different probability disparities exist in crypts, which might be cursed or trapped but have more potential for more advantageous gains... if one accepts that each new game is somehow the first incursion into this realm in a long long while and those crypts haven't already been gutted... or maybe new ones were built.  Hmmm... who would want to be buried in this place?  Certainly not anyone nice, and the monsters here wouldn't enshrine an invader... unless maybe it served them to do so in some insidious way.

The easiest way to tweak DQ is to look at the cards in each deck (which were not well designed for quickly distinguishing between their backs). Try taking out one card that is the worst result in each one. This may tilt the balance just enough without making them a pile of freebies that takes away the intended level of threat. As to those "good" cards in there being too weak, I for one wouldn't change that... well, the potions are pathetic over all.  But even when we still played DQ (it now gathers dust), we'd still grab just one as that last ditch when death was nigh. It was better than nothing.



#12 Gearhead

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 11:46 AM

I think you may not be enjoying the game because you're failing to understand the purpose of the game.  The game is designed to be a filler game, that doesn't take too long to play and is designed to kill you 7 out of 10 times.  Your decisions in this game really don't impact play much because the game is pretty much "random". 

If you like games like "Tales of the Arabian Nights" where the goal isn't so much to win as to enjoy the journey, you'll like Dungeonquest.  If not, you won't but maybe understanding that this game is more fun the more creatively you and the others die might help. 

This DQ is mostly true to the original.  You might even have a slighty better chance to survive in FFG version than the older version...



#13 Scy800

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 10:03 PM

 Just to put in one more favourable view towards this game, I love Dungeonquest. With the right mindset (I am going to die!) and a sense of humour this game is a blast. I've never made it out of the dungeon yet with treasure, and still I keep playing it. A perfect game if you have little time and just want to be entertained. Luckily my playgroup agrees with me.

I've got enough "serious games" already. The only I would like however is a card expansion in the long run. After a while  of constantly seeing the same potions and traps, I would like to see some new stuff.



#14 Tromdial

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 04:47 PM

Scy800 said:

 Just to put in one more favourable view towards this game, I love Dungeonquest. With the right mindset (I am going to die!) and a sense of humour this game is a blast. I've never made it out of the dungeon yet with treasure, and still I keep playing it. A perfect game if you have little time and just want to be entertained. Luckily my playgroup agrees with me.

I've got enough "serious games" already. The only I would like however is a card expansion in the long run. After a while  of constantly seeing the same potions and traps, I would like to see some new stuff.

Seconded. Everything absolutely seconded.

What the game needs is either a revising so that card decks are more diverse and supportive of being perused (i.e. especially Crypt and Dead Adventurer cards) and combat redone to be faster and thrilling. Difficulty does not need to be changed. Or, a major card PoD if FFG doesn't want to waste money on a revisement. Either way, idc, I'd buy either one if it improved my product. Regardless, my DQ gets a LOT of play.



#15 JCHendee

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Posted 21 January 2012 - 04:20 AM

Scy800 said:

 

I've got enough "serious games" already. The only I would like however is a card expansion in the long run. After a while  of constantly seeing the same potions and traps, I would like to see some new stuff.

 

 

Then go make some new cards.  Yes, you can.  http://www.fantasyfl...&efpag=0#605026

There have been a number of fantasy games kept alive by their hardcore enthusiasts after a company has found the product is no longer profitable. FFG has been pretty gracious in working through Jon New to make this possible for us.



#16 Scy800

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 07:13 PM

 I will definately make new cards for my game, if FFG doesn't. So many heroes and item images you can steel from Runebound/Descent, it would be a crime to not use that resource :) 

But I would very much prefer real expansions!

 



#17 rugal

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 09:17 PM

i already done it in french, but i need some time to translate all.



#18 Tromdial

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 07:27 PM

Scy800 said:

 I will definately make new cards for my game, if FFG doesn't. So many heroes and item images you can steel from Runebound/Descent, it would be a crime to not use that resource :) 

But I would very much prefer real expansions!

 

Agreed. FFG, I would buy these, even if they were simply PoDs!



#19 Panacco

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 10:31 AM

 A mini-expansion that adds equipment and consumables  to the search decks etc, but some nasty stuff aswell, just to add different approaches and tactics on your way to the treasures - I'd buy it in an instant!






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