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Descent 2nd Edition?


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#1 Interceptor

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 11:07 AM

FFG is making a 2nd edition of Descent. Wow, this really ticked me off when D & D did this with their miniatures line after I poured money into the first edition miniatures. They completely changed the rules and content for the new miniatures (stat cards), so the original miniatures were not compatible. At that point in time I swore off any product made by Wizards of the Coast, and I've held true to that. If you're going to make a game, get it right the first time; a 2nd edition (especially after the game has been out only a few years), really looks like just a ploy to squeeze more money from the gaming community. And to call Descent the "class game" of dungeon delving...I think the title "classic" would require the game to have been on the market longer than it has...maybe it's a classic in FFGs own mind. I used to play Descent, and products for that game are expensive with a capital "E." The loyal fans of Descent have got to be wondering why they spent all that money, and if they'll have to spend a down payment on a house to continue playing the updated game. Shameful!

This brings me back to a discussion on BattleLore. Could this 2nd edition Descent announcement signal a 2nd edition to other games, such as our beloved BattleLore? If so, the same would hold true: how much have we all spent on BattleLore products? Personally, I've spent hundreds of dollars of my hard earned money to play this game as a hobby I really enjoy. If a 2nd edition came out, I would certainly hope all the miniatures from the first edition would be compatible. I really think BattleLore is a great game as is, and I would rather see further expansions to this already quality product as opposed to a 2nd edition that makes the first edition stuff obsolete. Any thoughts?



#2 Caboose

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 03:22 PM

Well since there has been ANY news on anything Battlelore, I wouldn't even get my hopes that high for a 2nd edition.    They (FFG) can't even bother with the loyal folks that they have sadly!

Cab



#3 skolo

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 06:13 AM

Well, I just bought my Battlelore stuff with most of the expansions, so I`m not going to buy Battlelore 2.

Looking and comparing original DOW miniatures and those from FFG (more like those from Westeros) I see no added value.

 

I see less value for more money



#4 DragonWhimsy

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 01:55 PM

But with Descent they're releasing all new miniatures (models and stats) and then selling a conversion kit that allows you to bring all your old stuff into the game too. They could do the same for BattleLore giving you new BL stuff and making it so all your old stuff is still useful.

The fact is FFG CAN'T release a new base set like the old one. DoW couldn't either if they somehow magically got the license back. It's not financially sustainable even BEFORE the current economic downturn.

You either accept that necessity or you're good with the game dying. It's one or the other there's no middle ground to tread this time.


"Do you know the difference between an error and a mistake, Ensign? Anyone can make an error, but that error doesn't become a mistake until you refuse to correct it." -Grand Admiral Thrawn

 


#5 Elberon

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 09:04 PM

But there is no need to change the rules as they are doing with Descent, the system has its quirks yes (name me a game without one) but it has been playtested for years and years, there is stuff that Mr Borg has preparred to cover an army a year for eight years - I mean seriously eight years, no R&D the only sticking point is making the minis

What is needed is a scaled back base set, probably with two fantasy races rather than two human races (so it doesn't step on BoW toes, not that that is a major concern of mine but will be FFGs) then they can release a human army set pretty much on day one, for free as they have all the moulds for it already, and rules.

Lets not forget that Mr Borg has an entire alternative europe fleshed out, they could hand that over to their rpg team and away they go - heck they could even use BL dice to make it truly unique but no, they want the name Battlelore so they could release a game that - but that is a different bitterness. 

Hopefully Mr Borg can find a way to release the extra races as print and play sets as FFG doesn't even seem to want to use his ideas.

Chris



#6 skolo

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 12:32 AM

Elberon said:

Hopefully Mr Borg can find a way to release the extra races as print and play sets as FFG doesn't even seem to want to use his ideas.

Chris

Amen.



#7 Interceptor

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 07:42 AM

DragonWhimsy said:

 

But with Descent they're releasing all new miniatures (models and stats) and then selling a conversion kit that allows you to bring all your old stuff into the game too. They could do the same for BattleLore giving you new BL stuff and making it so all your old stuff is still useful.



#8 Interceptor

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 07:44 AM

The miniatures are only a small part of Descent...there is a huge amount of cards and tokens that are now unusable to loyal players. Now they must spend tons more money, and for what? What are they really getting with the 2nd edition? New miniatures...not worth the cost; you can buy nicer, pre-painted miniatures from various companies that are higher quality anyway. What about all the new cards and tokens...same crap, different toilet, right? New set of rules...I'm guessing FFG could have released a new set of rules that was compatible with the current Descent line for about $15.00. But that wouldn't be a money maker, would it? So, let's re-vamp the whole thing and slap a $50+ pricetag on it and pave the way for re-hashing all the old expansions at $50+ a piece while we're at it. I'm not buying that this is anything other than a money-making ploy.

 

Elberon is right...BattleLore is a fine game as is. Re-releasing it as a second edition would only be a ploy to squeeze more money out of its fanbase or to try to lure new players. The reality is, BattleLore is a good game as is. Making new miniatures for the game is one thing...make them compatible with the old miniatures, even if it's the same unit in a different pose. I don't think any of us would mind this...it would add an element of variety to the battlefield. As to new cards and tokens...what's the need? If it's not broke, don't fix it...same goes for new rules. I think, from what I've read on these boards from the loyal fans of BattleLore, is that players want new races, a rules compendium (this is how you tweak the existing rules; not by releasing a whole new edition of the game), and a book of battles and campaigns. Plus, it seems like Battles of Westeros can be viewed as a sort of BattleLore beta test, where alternate rules for the game were attempted...only to fizzle out as lackluster and uninventive.
 



#9 DragonWhimsy

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 12:39 AM

Plus, it seems like Battles of Westeros can be viewed as a sort of BattleLore beta test, where alternate rules for the game were attempted...only to fizzle out as lackluster and uninventive.

In your opinion. There are plenty of people who disagree with you. Nothing is more toxic than talking to the same five people who all happen to agree with you and then thinking your opinion is in the majority.

There's nothing lackluster and uninventive about Battles of Westeros. I've enjoyed playing it more than any other wargame or boardgame PERIOD. Despite the vitriol on this particular forum it's pretty freaking awesome. It's really a shame so many of you are so closed minded about it.


"Do you know the difference between an error and a mistake, Ensign? Anyone can make an error, but that error doesn't become a mistake until you refuse to correct it." -Grand Admiral Thrawn

 


#10 pot the ferret

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 01:55 AM

I got BoW (only b/c it was fifty and I like song of ice and fire), but the game is overly complicated and not a lot of fun. Way too many tokens and the battles take less strategy (for me anyways) b/c there's no division on the board and also b/c of the over-powered characters (and the fact that you can practically order every unit you have). And alot of things don't make sense. Why include an Eddard Stark character? The Mountain figurine is severely undersized. The North have the kennel masters but not the Lannisters (despite the fact that the Clegane family were kennel masters before they became knights). I also question some of the characters used only b/c some of them are really minor in the series. Also where's Robb's wolf? I thought the idea of having  - different objectives would add more strategy but I think it limits the strategy b/c after playing a battle a couple of times you know what you need to do and do the same thing again. 
 

It's also limited in its scope of different figures - at least until they release a wildlings, others or dragon set.

It seems maybe the universe of George RR Martin would be better suited if it was more like the War of the Ring game.



#11 skolo

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 02:32 AM

ok, something I dont understand is people hatin` about BL or BOW. 
you can like one or the other , but saying that BL fans are "closed minded" is just stupid.

you can indicate pros and cons of both titles (like pot did in post above asking questions) but shooting directly at people is just below some level.



#12 pot the ferret

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 04:19 AM

I have to admit I like the skirmish rules for BoW (probably better than battlelore's), and BoW has a huge potential to be a great 3-6 player epic game (although it would probably take forever); I just can't find anyone to play with (new people get turned off by the complexity and the scenarios don't really slowly introduce new concepts like Battlelore's core set)



#13 TheKingOfBlades

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 06:30 AM

pot the ferret said:

I have to admit I like the skirmish rules for BoW (probably better than battlelore's), and BoW has a huge potential to be a great 3-6 player epic game (although it would probably take forever); I just can't find anyone to play with (new people get turned off by the complexity and the scenarios don't really slowly introduce new concepts like Battlelore's core set)

I'd disagree with you on the skirmish rules. I thought they would be cool but the fact that you have no control on which units you will get to use made it the matches boring. They should have introduced specialist cards like battlelore so you would always be able to bring in a couple of units that you like. But what really makes the skirmish games unplayable to me is that each player gets to set up a few pieces of terrain so the battlefield ends up being very boring. People just place terrain under units they want protected or in places where they will be on turn one and the game just turns into one battle line fighting another battle line. At least that's the way it played for me.

But regarding a battlelore second edition. The game doesn't need it but if they do make it I hope as they make new races and units and other things that Richard Borg is able to release cards and rules to make the new content playable with first edition.



#14 pot the ferret

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 09:37 AM

when I play, I interject randomness - ie you can switch out two units for two units but it's random so you can't control what you get. I also have the terrain randomly selected and bounce back and forth between placing it on your side and the opponents side . . . but I like to add chance to games I play b/c it forces both players to use more strategy.

I assumed Battlelore second edition would be an update on all the rules (since rules have change slightly in expansions vs. the core set). ie. the bull rush for cattle riders, spiked shot for slingers, battle savvy, etc. - maybe I have a rulebook that covers everything from the "1st edition" and an adventure booklet that covers all the scenarios to date which would force new players to buy older expansions. Introduce a new race or two to force the old players to buy the new edition.



#15 DragonWhimsy

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 04:20 PM

ok, something I dont understand is people hatin` about BL or BOW.
you can like one or the other , but saying that BL fans are "closed minded" is just stupid.

you can indicate pros and cons of both titles (like pot did in post above asking questions) but shooting directly at people is just below some level.

I don't understand it either and hatin' on BL or BoW was not what I was doing at all. I never even commented on BattleLore itself. For the record it's a game I am very glad exists as it inspired the game I enjoy.

You REALLY need to take a hard look at some of your fellow BattleLore fans right here on this forum before you call anything I said "low". Please feel free to compare any statements I've made on here to say... hmm... maybe Caboose? Or do we not care about his immature actions because he's a BattleLore fan?

I don't care how long he's been here, what he's contributed, or how frustrated he is. He's acting like a child period.


"Do you know the difference between an error and a mistake, Ensign? Anyone can make an error, but that error doesn't become a mistake until you refuse to correct it." -Grand Admiral Thrawn

 


#16 skolo

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 09:43 PM

sorry Dragon, it was not my intention to point directly to you. sorry for that.

Caboose is a hardcore one I have noticed ;-)

at the end its all for us to have fun from it. I do. (even though FFG do not give a damn to answer questions or prepare FAQs etc etc ;-) )

at the end its also up to us if we support some releases , new or old , hence support the way FFG is dealing with all of that (us mainly)






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