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Formal petition: Print a Core Set with all 3x cards to help new player access tournament play.


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#1 Mamut

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 01:52 AM

Hello everyone!

 

I do believe most of us who started to play WH:I recently (in this year or a bit earlier) had a little problem, and that problem is: how to compete with other players who playes longer and have most or every card? I myself already got almost every card (3x) since I buy this game with my friend (he takes destro cards, I take order), but it takes a lot of effort (and money!) in a short amount of time to be competitive. In my opinion that might be a major problem for new players to play this game. And without easy access player's base will decrease. I do believe that most of us knows someone who would play WHI IF it wont take so much money at the begining. Example from Poland: when one internet seller decreased a price from 120 zl to ~80 for a Core set Polish version(1 $ = around 3 zl) he sold everything he had in stock.

I myself have few friends who would like to play, but not too much people are determine to spend so much cash at once to play this game, that's why I think FFG should consider reedition of core set with all 3x cards. More new players= more battlepacks sold=more cash for FFG=more battlepacks new battlebacks and so on :)

 

We're in a place where starting a game and beeing competitive becomes kinda difficult, that's why I formaly ask Fantasy Flight Games to consider making it easy.

 

yours, Mamut

 

 



#2 stormer

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 02:45 AM

 I agree, i know so many guys who love playing WHI, but they don't buy cards beacuse of core set problem (3 core sets are very expansive!).

It should be reorganised all in 3x or should be published some kind of starter kit: something like a subset of main cards in core set (like demolition, pillage, troll vomit, warpstone excavation, contested village, troll vomit, Verena, ...) all in 3x... and maybe the same should be done for the first cicle and for ulthuan.

I'm quite sure this will boost up the number of new players!



#3 Ileopsoas

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 08:02 AM

I agree with this petition

I have everything in 3x, but i think a LCG should't mask behind trick such us this because 3x is NECESSARY, and you aren't going to buy a game thrice, don't you?



#4 rzarectz

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 04:23 PM

Lol good luck with this pipe dream.

FFG have gone on the record as saying, or at least implying, that this is bad for business, and that they never intend to do this with core sets (it was on the associated thread of a GoT expasion a few monts ago).  I think all hope went out the window for this when they released the LotR LCG core set, not but a few months ago, with single copies of cards. This after years of complaints regarding single copied cards in their 3 other LCGs.  Profit maximization is a nasty business..  

 

Edit:

I dug up the thread, read the 8th post of the thread by a FFG employee.  The reason he gives as to why single cards are prduced really irked me but thats another matter.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=2243



#5 ChaosChild

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 05:19 AM

Core set currently costs $39.95 and contains 220 cards (including draft cards). What you're asking for would contain 381 game cards plus draft cards, almost twice as many. Assuming that you only get one set of counters and capital boards you're still looking at a price of about $70 per box. That's way out of most people's price range for a starter set.

Yes, it's cheaper than buying 3 whole core sets. And yes, anyone who's already serious about the game would pay it. But you'd kill any kind of casual sales.

 



#6 stormer

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 05:50 AM

ChaosChild said:

Core set currently costs $39.95 and contains 220 cards (including draft cards). What you're asking for would contain 381 game cards plus draft cards, almost twice as many. Assuming that you only get one set of counters and capital boards you're still looking at a price of about $70 per box. That's way out of most people's price range for a starter set.

Yes, it's cheaper than buying 3 whole core sets. And yes, anyone who's already serious about the game would pay it. But you'd kill any kind of casual sales.

Ok, but the economical focus is not only about core sets!

FFG will earn less from core set (because of a fewer number of casual buyers) but the pool of serious WHI players will be slightly larger day after day, and that means more global sells! There are a lot of deluxe expansions and battelpacks ready to be sold, less core set sold (in 3x) means more other sets sold!

WHI should not be considered a board game like many others, it's a great card game having fantastic rules and mechanics, it should be felt like the great card game it really is!

I'm tired to play demostrative games and when finally i have cought their attention and raised up their interest usually the discussion is:

- "Ok, i like very much that deck, a rianimator. How much does it cost a deck like this?"

- "hum, first of all you need 3 core sets because of Pillage and Troll Vomit... do u have friends to share the purchase?"

- "Ok, i drop. I'm going to start playing Magic, it's cheaper if u have to start! ...it's a pity, this game is very interesting, but i can't afford it!"

 

I think is a suicidal economical stragegy: pay more to start, then pay less to keep on playing!

It should be the opposite strategy, what does it mean "LCG philosophy" if to start playing u have to spend more than a CCG??? 



#7 KurganDK

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 06:23 AM

Don’t think it’ll happen, but I support this suggestion.



#8 Mallumo

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 06:34 AM

More expensive core sets would drastically reduce the number of casual players who buy the game just because it looks interesting. A fair number of casual players turn into more or less competitive players willing to buy expansions. So a more expensive core set might hurt the number of players and the sales. You can't just look at this from the perspective of someone already well into the game, or someone used to spending thousands of bucks on competitive CCGs.

I also think you're doing something wrong when you're showing people reanimator decks to get them interested. Use simple decks to introduce them to the play mechanics, not special cases. And of course it will turn people away if you give them the impression they *need* three core sets to have fun with this game - which they really don't. And if they want to be highly competitive, there's still no comparison to the cost of playing Magic (be serious, please), and a different core set format wouldn't change the fact that they would have to spend a considerable amount of money, since they'd still need to buy at least most of the battlepacks and deluxe expansions.



#9 stormer

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 06:59 AM

Mallumo said:

I also think you're doing something wrong when you're showing people reanimator decks to get them interested. Use simple decks to introduce them to the play mechanics, not special cases. And of course it will turn people away if you give them the impression they *need* three core sets to have fun with this game - which they really don't. And if they want to be highly competitive, there's still no comparison to the cost of playing Magic (be serious, please), and a different core set format wouldn't change the fact that they would have to spend a considerable amount of money, since they'd still need to buy at least most of the battlepacks and deluxe expansions.

I usually start playing simpler decks... but first questions always are: "Is this a growing up game? Is there some kind of community? Are there tournaments, how many persons play this game"?
So I have to play more competitive decks to show them if they want to play seriously they will be satisfied!
Rianimator is just an example... the problem is that i find many young guys interested (usually students) and they really like the game, but no one buys a Core Set! They say: Ok, Magic is expensive... but WHI is the same, at the very beginning!

I totally agree with you, WHI is less expansive than Magic, the problem is the first cost, the cost to start playing... this is the first expense and when they know that core sets are not in 3x they usually are disappointed... it's always the same!

 

Trust in me, I usually play WHI in shops and clubs, every time i found new gauys very interested in the game, but in the end noone buys a core set, because of the 3x problem. 

I don't know if it's better to have core set in 3x or maybe some kind of "starter kit", but something has to be done, otherwise this will be perceived like a board game for occasional players. And that's very disappointing, i think!



#10 loken14

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 07:12 AM

 maybe a battle pack ish thing that would have duplicates to get 3x of all the cards that arent 3x for like 20 ish dollar that would supplement the core set first cycle and assault on ulthane (i think) sorry new here only got march of the dammned and first 4 battle packs im tryin to catch up and it would include enough copiues of the 3x to be cheaper than buyin more than one copy while still keepin it cheep for people who dont wanna spend a ton on multiples



#11 jogo

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 02:19 PM

Some kind of startet box might be an option. A functionable 50 card deck for a single race + board + counter (deluxe) or card capital and cut out markers.



#12 Vitamin T

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 04:13 PM

I have always liked the idea of a single race starter set

 

TL



#13 DaniCarre

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 11:10 PM

Core x3 60$ >>> Actual Core 39,99 $



#14 HappyDD

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 02:54 AM

After the success of "Formal petition: Ban Visit the Haunted City" I anticipate an explosion in formal petitions!

Anyway, I remember when Rzarectz went off on the FFG guy about the 3x Core Set. He was a hero to the people! But I kinda get where FFG is coming from with the quasi-balance rhetoric. Tough call.



#15 Aryan

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 03:44 AM

I think my case will add something into discussion. I believe I spent more than 200h playing the game with core set, ulthuan and 1st cycle. AND I STOPPED.

I played the game exclusively with my friend and when I had to move to another city i was left with no playmates. It's not that easy to drag new people into strategic card game who are not even familliar with board games. It just seems too much an effort and it's not fun to make a friend because of the game. It should be the other way tound. Play with friends.

Second thing I could think of was joining clubs or shops with cards/board games. Yet these places are most likely visited by fanatics that compete with eachother buying coresets 3x in order to win in their circles. It's no fun to lose all the time or resign of some decks just becausae you lack extra 2 copies.

I'm not going to buy 3 core sets just in order to return to the game and enjoy it completely though i could afford it. I don't feel comfortable with the idea.

I still read this forum, because of many fine memories of the game. Yet won't buy a single battle pack before i feel I own a complete game.

And one more thing: we tried a couple of times to play using octgn, building decks with 3 copies. Once we've tried, we couldn't come back to single core set. FFG should really take this petition into consideration.

Best regards.



#16 Reg06

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 04:06 AM

Aryan said:

 It just seems too much an effort and it's not fun to make a friend because of the game. It should be the other way tound. Play with friends.

Second thing I could think of was joining clubs or shops with cards/board games. Yet these places are most likely visited by fanatics that compete with eachother buying coresets 3x in order to win in their circles. It's no fun to lose all the time or resign of some decks just becausae you lack extra 2 copies.

I regularly game with a circle of about a dozen people, all of whom I consider friends. All of whom I met through internet meet up sites and game shops, because I was looking for games to play and we happened to get along very well. Some of my closest friends I met through D&D organized play, and I now rent a house with one. Give being an extrovert a chance.

Aryan said:

Second thing I could think of was joining clubs or shops with cards/board games. Yet these places are most likely visited by fanatics that compete with eachother buying coresets 3x in order to win in their circles. It's no fun to lose all the time or resign of some decks just becausae you lack extra 2 copies.

I'm not going to buy 3 core sets just in order to return to the game and enjoy it completely though i could afford it. I don't feel comfortable with the idea.

I still read this forum, because of many fine memories of the game. Yet won't buy a single battle pack before i feel I own a complete game.

You don't need three core sets to enjoy the game, or to be competitive. I don't expect a player who doesn't own three copies of every card to win the world tournaments, but you aren't playing at that level. Your decks will be fine. My strongest decks don't even have three copies of their best cards.

 



#17 rzarectz

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 08:08 AM

ChaosChild said:

Assuming that you only get one set of counters and capital boards you're still looking at a price of about $70 per box. That's way out of most people's price range for a starter set.

Yes, it's cheaper than buying 3 whole core sets. And yes, anyone who's already serious about the game would pay it. But you'd kill any kind of casual sales.

 

Honestly I really dont agree with this.  There are many board games out there that cost $70.  Most casual fantasy game player's would not consider this to expensive assuming they have a base level of interest in the game.  I would say that the realization that you're not getting a complete set of the cards with the purchase, and the necessity to buy useless multiple copies of cards to have a complete set (as is a reality in CCG's), is more of a deterrent to a casual player's than the extra $30.  Lets not forget many casual players are collectors at heart and place an intrinsic premium on having a complete set.  Further many causal players still like the option of building competative decks.  The necessity of having to buy useless cards to be competative is the main deterrant for people w.r.t. customizable card games, so I think this being the case in FFG's LCGs is a poor business strategy.  If they want to market the game as something refreshingly different from CCG's they should have definitely avoided this like the plague in my opinion, even if it would require $70 core sets.



#18 ddm5182

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 09:21 AM

What they really need to do is print a new Core set that rotates the old one out of competitive play.  Or at least establish a second tournament format where only the most recent core set + most recent X battlepacks are legal.

The cost to new players is already prohibitive; at some point, the economics of "well, if you want to build a competitive deck you need to shell out $700+..." are going to hurt new player acquisition.  WHI is already worse than competitive Magic: The Gathering for initial investment costs.  Not a good thing.

Too, as a deck builder, I am getting tired of factoring in cards like Master Rune of Spite, Reclaiming the Fallen, Judgment of Verena, etc when designing new decks.  Not that I necessarily think these cards warrant a ban per se... I am just tired of building with them in mind and would like to see a fresh format where some of the cards and strategies these staples hold in check can be allowed to shine.



#19 loken14

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 10:09 AM

ddm5182 said:

What they really need to do is print a new Core set that rotates the old one out of competitive play.  Or at least establish a second tournament format where only the most recent core set + most recent X battlepacks are legal.

The cost to new players is already prohibitive; at some point, the economics of "well, if you want to build a competitive deck you need to shell out $700+..." are going to hurt new player acquisition.  WHI is already worse than competitive Magic: The Gathering for initial investment costs.  Not a good thing.

Too, as a deck builder, I am getting tired of factoring in cards like Master Rune of Spite, Reclaiming the Fallen, Judgment of Verena, etc when designing new decks.  Not that I necessarily think these cards warrant a ban per se... I am just tired of building with them in mind and would like to see a fresh format where some of the cards and strategies these staples hold in check can be allowed to shine.

not that drastic cause then all of us wasted that money so a few new players can play u screw over all the old players but maybe a way of makin competitive decks with newer cards is also possible a new core set could be an idea but u should still have the original core set for thos who want a complete collection



#20 Titan

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Posted 02 August 2011 - 05:00 AM

I certainly agree with the idea of having new core sets of 3X cards. It would provide a starting place for new players who could then buy packs at their discretion. What exactly would this hurt? The sales of the old core set that's close to 2 years old? Not to mention, it would be like a super expansion set for older players who would certainly buy it. The weakness I've always seen in the LCG model is that the original release is required to play, therefore forcing new players to buy it. But with more and more packs out, you need to spend more money if you want to have options to customize your decks. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't like playing with the exact same deck over and over. I definitely think that every so often FFG needs to provide a starting point for new players who can then move forward with the new releases as opposed to having to go back and get the old ones.






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