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Who is Azor Ahai Reobern? (ADWD spoilers)


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#1 Stag Lord

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 09:25 AM

It has to be Jon Snow. it has to be.

 

He gets cut down at the end of Dance, but I don't think he stays dead. I strongly suspect Mel resurrects him with the Red Kiss next book (thanks madkasel). then he will fulfill her prophecy form Clash: AA will be reborn amid salt and smoke under the bloody star to wake the dragon from stone.

 

Jon's wounds are smoking in the cold - Bowen Marsh is weeping and teh giant is swining the dead knight overhead - his sigil being a star. i can't figure out the dragon bit yet - but I think Jon doesn't stay dead and I think he's AA.

 

Dany has a really strong case too - and she fulfills the bit about waking dargons - but where's the salt? and is the coemt running when she goes into the Pyre?

Davos - risen from salt and smoke under the star on the Blackwater - but he is even farther from any dragons. Plus - he didn't really die.


We all know its not Stannis - I really think its Jon Snow. I really do.



#2 Saturnine

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 09:59 AM

 I do think Jon has a strong case simply because Melisandre mentions she keeps seeing him when she's trying to see Azor Ahai in the fires (who she believes to be Stannis at that point, hence her confusion at seeing Jon). If Jon indeed lives in the next book, it has to be Melisandre who helps bring him back from death's door.

The whole salt and smoke thing is a bit dodgy, though -- I'm not quite sure how to apply it to Jon (or anyone, for that matter). I'm wondering if the salt of the prophecy might represent a Greyjoy - in Jojen's dream Theon and his men were represented by the sea coming over the walls of Winterfell.

I also wouldn't be terribly surprised if Jon simply ends up being dead, though GRRM would be particularly cruel for making his death scene so purposefully ambiguous that you can't help but think he'll live. Just when I've been starting to like Jon.

 



#3 madkasel

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 03:20 PM

The path that took you to this brilliant conclusion was very interesting to follow, stag lord. We started the day in agreement (and hope) that Jon was dead and would stay so. Then you caught this and that from our messages and pulled this thought together.

It immediately and intuitively feels correct. Recall that Mel keeps seeing Jon when she tries to see AA reborn and she can't figure out why since he didn't fit it at all.

The thing about it that makes it feel most right is how the pieces of the puzzle are kind of forced there at his death... especially the bloody stars waving above as Wug Wug batters poor Ser Patrek (who must've attacked him?).

Mel will resurrect Jon and then... I dunno! We'll see. He died so his watch has ended. If she suddenly believes he's AA Reborn, what will that mean for Stannis? For the Queen's Men (as they're always noted) who follow Stannis?

 I grow tired of the resurrections in the books, but feel that Jon will be brought back by Mel and will be AA Reborn. Not sure on the dragon thing and how that'll play out, but the final chapter also references treasure on Dragonstone so maybe that stone dragon is there and Jon will be able to bring him forth. Wouldn't it be something if they sacrificed Stannis to bring it to life?

Anyway... my first post on the forums in a loooooooooooooooooooooooooong while!

 



#4 Shenanigans

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 02:52 AM

Jon does seem to be a pretty strong AA/PWWP reborn candidate. If the popular theory as to his parentage (Rhaegar/Lyanna) is true, the "song of ice and fire" part certainly holds water.



#5 Stag Lord

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 03:02 AM

Good to see you in public again Madk. And Shenanigans - if teh R+L=J thing is correct, maybe it fulfills the "waking the dragon" bit of the prohecy -0 the thing i am sticking on.



#6 Maester_LUke

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 05:58 AM

 I need to do some reviewing, but another possibility for Jon's "rebirth" (I know there are claims about too many resurrections, but how many have there been vs. how many "faked deaths?" could be him entering Ghost, and subsequently taking a human form, a la Bran & Hodor.  Many have pointed out that Martin's point has been that parentage is environmental rather than genetic.  What would Jon be like in someone else's body?  Would he even be accepted?  Would he need to take over for someone who would be accepted? (Stannis?)  Of course, it seems to require some inborn potential to be a warg in the first place. :)



#7 LoneWanderer

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 06:40 AM

Isn't the biggest 'John is coming right back from the dead' clue the prelude to Dance?

Why give us such a long seminar on skinchangers living on, conciously, in the bodies of their animals, if Jon isn't going to hop straight into Ghost at the point of his death? Once he's there, it's not a massive stretch to see him shifting back into the body of another human (1. Because, again, we got a big seminar on that in the Prelude, and 2. No Mel required). It's a particularly neat solution, because it means that Jon is physically 'reborn' in another body rather than just being a zombie version of himself.

Also, that solution neatly gets us round the 'living dead' weirdness that characters like Cat, Beric, and (in a different way) Robert Strong have going on, and gives Martin several billion different options for getting Jon/Azor back in the game (screw it, make him hop into Wun Wun and bring back the 'Last of the Giants' in a big damn way; he can literally go as nuts as he likes).

Also, given that we recently got treated to a whole lot of people rambling on about how greyscale turns people to 'stone', is there not enough ambiguity present for John to fulfil the final step of the prophecy by 'waking the dragon' by shunting himself into the body of somebody suffering from the condition? We already know of two candidates present in Westeros (Shireen and Jon Con; both of whom could plausibly infect any other member of the cast you choose to mention) and you could even go so far as to imagine that he might end up being the trigger for Tyrion (who, after his recent swimming trip, could spring out in Grayscale at any time, because, as Val has so handily told us "It's only ever sleeping") to realise his 'inner dragon' (if you buy into the Tyrion = Half-Targaryen theory).

Alternatively, given that there's a famous room full of stone statues tucked away below Winterfell, it's not a massive stretch to see Jon 'awakening dragons' there. Be it by shunting himself into a new body while in the crypts (Mance? Yeah, sure, that'd be fun... I say Martin should go for it), discovering his true Targaryen identity (both Bran and Rickon have seen a vision of Ned's ghost hanging around in there, and he's the man that can tell Jon who he really is) while present in the crypts, or even doing something ludicrous like awakening an actual statue; you could happily finish the prophecy up that way without having to do too much legwork (and given Jon's current burning desire to go beat the stuffing out of Ramsay, seeing him head to Winterfell doesn't seem unlikely). Heck, for the icing on the cake, why not see Jon 'awaken as a dragon' in Winterfell's crypt, before heading outside to pick up Stannis' Lightbringer (previously pretty, but not physically hot, as real Lightbringer would be) and having its blade immediately burst into flame?

Either way, long story short: Jon isn't staying dead. He's Azor Ahai reborn. Martin has left himself a whole truckload of ways to make him fulfil the prophecy in weird and wonderful ways.

 



#8 Stag Lord

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 07:02 AM

You're definitely on to something with the warg thing, lonewanderer. I doubt Martin will go that route becuase he hasn't really etsablished jon being an "active" warg - he seems fairly unaware of his affinity with animals, unlike Bran and Arya. I strongly suspect Mel will be the catalyst - and that the dargon aprt will fall into palce soemhow. I liek your theory about the stone statues below Winterfell.

Thing is: i wish martin would levae him dead. he won't - Martin has said that all the deaths fo major characters ahve been plot points for eyars - since he conceived teh series in the early ninties. but in a lot of ways - a good, permanent major character death would dial back the more fantastical elements and restore some of the stark realism of the series. Like eh reviewer in the Atlantic article wrote: "IF Martin went that route, I'd be surprised and impressed". Agree that it won't happen though.

And what does Melisandre do then? she may be a little dim (as we have learned in Dance) But she can't miss the implications of this. Will she then abandon Stannis? How will he re-act?



#9 madkasel

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 08:45 AM

Very interesting thoughts, LoneWanderer!

I suppose Bran could help Jon learn to warg better. Your ideas on greyscale being a key to the "stone" bit gives a lot to think about. Clearly, there has to be more to greyscale than we'd first thought given it's ramped up presence in Dance.



#10 Kennon

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 11:26 AM

Yes, a huge presence. And interestingly, I had previously thought it just a Martin's world variation on leprosy, but it wasn't until the afflicted started to drop on to the boat with Tyrion and company that it sunk in that these people are quite literally turning into stone. The magical/fantastical elements in this book were ramped way up from prior entries in the series.



#11 LoneWanderer

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 11:39 AM

Stag Lord said:

You're definitely on to something with the warg thing, lonewanderer. I doubt Martin will go that route becuase he hasn't really etsablished jon being an "active" warg - he seems fairly unaware of his affinity with animals, unlike Bran and Arya. I strongly suspect Mel will be the catalyst - and that the dargon aprt will fall into palce soemhow. I liek your theory about the stone statues below Winterfell.

Thing is: i wish martin would levae him dead. he won't - Martin has said that all the deaths fo major characters ahve been plot points for eyars - since he conceived teh series in the early ninties. but in a lot of ways - a good, permanent major character death would dial back the more fantastical elements and restore some of the stark realism of the series. Like eh reviewer in the Atlantic article wrote: "IF Martin went that route, I'd be surprised and impressed". Agree that it won't happen though.

And what does Melisandre do then? she may be a little dim (as we have learned in Dance) But she can't miss the implications of this. Will she then abandon Stannis? How will he re-act?

Stag Lord said:

You're definitely on to something with the warg thing, lonewanderer. I doubt Martin will go that route becuase he hasn't really etsablished jon being an "active" warg - he seems fairly unaware of his affinity with animals, unlike Bran and Arya

I'm not so sure about him not being active.

Sure he's not at Bran level, but he has seen through Ghost's eyes on occassion (as I recall), and he's aware that he's definitely a warg. The "Boar Warg Man" (whose name I forget right now) stuff got us that far; the looking looking him in the eye and being called "Brother" bit and all of the "Better not let our two animals mix" stuff.

I wouldn't be surprised to just see Jon wind up in Ghost's body regardless. GRRM could happily just wave that through as "They're bonded enough already, it just happens", odd though that would be.

 

Stag Lord said:

I strongly suspect Mel will be the catalyst - and that the dargon aprt will fall into palce soemhow. I liek your theory about the stone statues below Winterfell.

100% agree that Mel is at the wall for a significant plot reason. If she wasn't needed to act as a cog in some part of the narrative then she'd have tromped off with Stannis into the snow.

What I'm not 100% sold on is the 'She reanimates Jon' stuff. All of the other R'hllor Reanimates come across as kind of evil, satany and undead (Beric, Lady Stoneheart, and to a perhaps lesser extent Victarion). The fact that they actually die seems to taint them somehow. As such, I don't think that Azor Jesus Ahai is going to be brought back to us like that, not only would it be too obvious, but he needs to come back in a more saintly and natural kind of way (Weirwoods in a circle or something, they seem pretty innocent and Greenpeacy, go nuts).

In my humble opinion, R'hllor has just been painted as a bit too devily and unwholesome to be the key to Azor Ahai's rebirth. Put it this way, the fiery god stuff is pretty cool, but do you guys really feel comfortable enough with the child-burning, poison-chugging, slave-keeping, smoking-zombie-fist-making Red Priests to give them 'facilitators of the saviour' status in the novel?

 

Stag Lord said:

Thing is: i wish martin would levae him dead. he won't - Martin has said that all the deaths fo major characters ahve been plot points for eyars - since he conceived teh series in the early ninties. but in a lot of ways - a good, permanent major character death would dial back the more fantastical elements and restore some of the stark realism of the series. Like eh reviewer in the Atlantic article wrote: "IF Martin went that route, I'd be surprised and impressed". Agree that it won't happen though.

Word.

Killing off somebody so irritatingly perfect and seemingly untouchable as Jon would be awesome. I'd be completely blown away if it turned out that his sole purpose in the story was to get Sam on his way to Oldtown and to get an army of Wildlings ready to do whatever it is that they're needed to do in the North.

Unfortunately, I just can't see it happening. Jon just has too much that he hasn't done to be disposable, yet. He's got a parentage which hasn't been disclosed, a place in a prophecy (Mel's recent firegazing) that hasn't been fulfilled, and a vow that he's simply got to break (i.e. by getting killed so that his 'watch can end', then coming back and doing the epic 'saving Westeros' stuff that he's clearly been getting set up for ever since finding that pure white wolf and getting a big fat A+ in every single exam that he's been set) before he can die.

Personally, I find him (and Dany) irritatingly do-goody and simplistic, I wish death upon him (and her) in every chapter. I just don't think that its either of their times yet.

 

madkasel said:

Your ideas on greyscale being a key to the "stone" bit gives a lot to think about. Clearly, there has to be more to greyscale than we'd first thought given it's ramped up presence in Dance.


Yeah, it suddenly went from 'interesting bit of background flavour' to 'conspicuously belaboured point' status.

Patchface surrounded by skulls in a fire + Val going nuts over Shireen + obvious Azor Ahai Candidate who needs to wake dragons from stone in close proximity; mere minutes after a chapter in which eight people on a boat said the phrase "stone men" about ninety billion times, was all a bit too much of a coincidence for my liking.

Even if it's not the key to the whole prophecy thing, it's going to do something interesting in the narrative (other than give Jon Con a plausible explanation for suddenly becoming reckless and impetuous after a lifetime of laying low).

 

 



#12 LoneWanderer

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 11:52 AM

Also, just to brainstorm a bit now that I'm thinking on the subject:

 

Mel is big on killing the son of a king to bring forth dragons.

Meloquo (sic? The Magic Dude with Victarion) likes the idea of binding dragons to Victarion by making him the owner of a certain magical horn by using blood in some way.

Mance had a certain ornate looking horn with him at the Wall. It may or not have been burned (we all know that Mel saved Mance from being burned by using a glamer and switching in a dummy, why not the horn as well? A horn which, in that case, could well be disguised as anything right now)

Mel (whose name is weirdly similar to Meloquo's) ought to know everything that Meloquo knows about fiery magical stuff and, I guess, dragonbinding.

Shireen has Greyscale and is the child of a king.

Pathface, Shireen's only companion, is marked out in the fires as surrounded by death.

 

Put it all together and:

Is Jon going to bring dragons (with Dany on top of one?) to the wall by; killing Shireen, thereby coating the 'could look like anything, even an executioner's block, Horn Of Joramund' in her blood and making it into some kind of dragon-binding device, then getting somebody (No matter how inadvertently? Patchface?) to blow it, thereby beckoning the Dragons to the wall?

Probably not, but it's an interesting quandry for a rainy day, I guess.



#13 madkasel

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 01:51 PM

LoneWanderer said:

Yeah, it suddenly went from 'interesting bit of background flavour' to 'conspicuously belaboured point' status.

Patchface surrounded by skulls in a fire + Val going nuts over Shireen + obvious Azor Ahai Candidate who needs to wake dragons from stone in close proximity; mere minutes after a chapter in which eight people on a boat said the phrase "stone men" about ninety billion times, was all a bit too much of a coincidence for my liking.

 

George RR Martin, sublety be not thy name.



#14 Stag Lord

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 03:17 AM

You amke soem really good points Lone wanderer - but I remain convinced mel will bring back Jon. Having him shift consciousness into another's body simply won't convince people across the realm that he is Azor Ahai. The prohecy is pretty clear on the "rebirth" thing -  I think it has to be literally that for people to beleive it - specifically the faithful. And I agree that Jon is a warg - beyond teh baor dude, Varamyr recognizes him as such in teh prologue. But I'm not sure HE is aware - and less sure he cna actually control the consciousness shift.

no - i'll be stunned if it isn't Mel.

I like your thoughts on the horn getting to the wall eventually. although we are so far out form that, its like predicting next month's weather. More importantly - is the Horn victarion has the one Euron brough back from Asshai? Someone somewhere taht they thought it might be the ral Horn of winter - since we have learned that Mance's is a fake. Taht can't be possible, can it?



#15 LoneWanderer

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 06:36 AM

Stag Lord said:

Having him shift consciousness into another's body simply won't convince people across the realm that he is Azor Ahai. The prohecy is pretty clear on the "rebirth" thing -  I think it has to be literally that for people to beleive it - specifically the faithful.

Nah, the people of Westeros have had plenty of reanimated 'rebirthed' bodies recently (well, at least three). Another one of those isn't even going to raise an eyebrow.

The thing that's going to convince them is a sword with a constantly burning blade, a trio of dragons, the wall being turned into icecubes, and a pile of dead wights that's approximately the size of Mount Rushmore.

Also, somewhere along the line, it's my understanding that the seasons end up being regularised. $5 says New Azor has a hand in that, much to the delight of all.



#16 RJM

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 05:48 PM

Stag Lord said:

I like your thoughts on the horn getting to the wall eventually. although we are so far out form that, its like predicting next month's weather. More importantly - is the Horn victarion has the one Euron brough back from Asshai? Someone somewhere taht they thought it might be the ral Horn of winter - since we have learned that Mance's is a fake. Taht can't be possible, can it?

 

Don't forget the conspicuously inconspicuous crappy looking horn that was found stashed with the buried obsidian daggers and arrowheads Jon previously found beyond the wall wrapped in a black cloak, and that we haven't heard anything about for a couple books.



#17 madkasel

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 08:27 AM

RJM said:

Stag Lord said:

 

I like your thoughts on the horn getting to the wall eventually. although we are so far out form that, its like predicting next month's weather. More importantly - is the Horn victarion has the one Euron brough back from Asshai? Someone somewhere taht they thought it might be the ral Horn of winter - since we have learned that Mance's is a fake. Taht can't be possible, can it?

 

 

 

Don't forget the conspicuously inconspicuous crappy looking horn that was found stashed with the buried obsidian daggers and arrowheads Jon previously found beyond the wall wrapped in a black cloak, and that we haven't heard anything about for a couple books.

 

Good point. The Purloined Horn... hiding in plain site.



#18 madkasel

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 08:27 AM

RJM said:

Stag Lord said:

 

I like your thoughts on the horn getting to the wall eventually. although we are so far out form that, its like predicting next month's weather. More importantly - is the Horn victarion has the one Euron brough back from Asshai? Someone somewhere taht they thought it might be the ral Horn of winter - since we have learned that Mance's is a fake. Taht can't be possible, can it?

 

 

 

Don't forget the conspicuously inconspicuous crappy looking horn that was found stashed with the buried obsidian daggers and arrowheads Jon previously found beyond the wall wrapped in a black cloak, and that we haven't heard anything about for a couple books.

RJM said:

Stag Lord said:

 

I like your thoughts on the horn getting to the wall eventually. although we are so far out form that, its like predicting next month's weather. More importantly - is the Horn victarion has the one Euron brough back from Asshai? Someone somewhere taht they thought it might be the ral Horn of winter - since we have learned that Mance's is a fake. Taht can't be possible, can it?

 

 

 

Don't forget the conspicuously inconspicuous crappy looking horn that was found stashed with the buried obsidian daggers and arrowheads Jon previously found beyond the wall wrapped in a black cloak, and that we haven't heard anything about for a couple books.

 

Good point. The Purloined Horn... hiding in plain site.



#19 JerusalemJones

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 02:02 PM

 The horn that Sam has. Myself, since the moment it was introduced, I figured it was the real Horn of Winter.

As for the Horn of Dragons, I kept waiting for the point in the story where the dragons responded to the horn when Cragorn blew it back at Naga's Ribs and the Kingsmoot. If this horn has magical properties, well, apparently some limited range is involved.

While we're on the topic of bizarre theories, who says that there can only be one Azor Ahai? Jon currently fits the bill (provided he is resurrected), Dany fits the bill, Stannis...sorta...fits the bill.

But I do think Stag has the right of it. Mel will bring back Jon, because he truly does have too much story left to him. The big question is how does she keep him safe, after we know that the brothers of the Watch have turned on him. And for a truly stupid reason. Jon is preparing the wall for when the Others come. Yet the old members can only see the wildlings as a threat, not as an ally. Perhaps they see them as the only threat, that the wights are easily dealt with, and that the Others are no more than a myth. Whatever the real reason, whatever the provocation, there are members of the Watch who would likely just kill Jon again, based on their actions in his last chapter.



#20 Rubinon

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 07:56 PM

And there you have your answer why the Others couldn't be a bigger threat in this book. If hey had assaulted the Wall, the brothers of the Night's Watch would have stood together. (Much like the strategy the Shadows used in Bab 5 all these years ago would always cause the peoples to unite, not fight... But I disgress.)

To tell the story of the far-seeing leader being brought down by his short-sighted followers (doesn't that sound familiar from our daily politics?), the Others had to stay an uncertain, distant threat. It's different for us, the readers, because the Others were introduced in the very first chapter of the very first book, even before all the Stark children. So we know they are one of the main threats. But for most of the story (especially for all chapters that don't deal with the NIght's Watch) the Others don't play a role. If they where out in the open, all this beautiful backstabbing, being mean and being human wouldn't occur. And I think it's one of the powerful motives of Martins Song that he has all this, even though there is a very fantastic Dark Danger ™ lurking beyond the Wall.






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