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Industrialist and Meteor Storm


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#1 logical

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 04:38 AM

Hi there.

I was playing Cosmic Encounter yesterday with the Cosmic Conflict expansion. The following situation occured:

I was the Industrialist and another player was attacking me. During this encounter the Meteor Storm hazard card was drawn which states: "If both main players reveal attack cards, add together the totals of both sides. If the combined total is over 25, a deadly meteor storm is triggered by the fighting, causing both sides to lose, regardless of other game effects."

We both played attack cards and the combined total was over 25. So we both lost.

But, the Industrialist card states: "As a main player, after you lose an encounter in which you have revealed an attack card, your opponent must either allow you to win the encounter instead of losing, or else allow you to place your attack card faceup on this sheet, adding it to your stack".

So, do to the Meteor Storm, I, the Industrialist, lost an encounter in which I revealed an attack card.

I wanted to place my attack card in my stack, but the other players did not allow me, saying that this situation does not count.

So, what do you guys think ?



#2 MimeKirby

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 05:33 AM

Honestly, I'm thinking that you would get to add the card to your stack...

For this, certain things must be taken into consideration:

1) Your opponent HAS to choose to let you add the card to your stack, since the Meteor Storm doesn't allow them to let you win.

2) Do you think that, due to Meteor Storm causing both main players to lose:

  • Warrior gains an extra token because he lost
  • Spiff can still crash land if his total was lower than his opponent's by 10 or more
  • Ethic gets compensation as though he played a Negotiate
  • Vaccuum can potentially cause the other player to lose double the ships (if both used the same amount of ships)

If you say no to any of these (even though you might not), keep in mind... it's "all or none" for these and Industrialist, since they all take effect if they lose the encounter.

 

Now here's an odd thought process...

Loser vs. Industrialist

Loser calls an upset, Industrialist ends up losing (before the Loser takes effect), since Loser's power says it takes effect after all other game effects, that could potentially mean Industrialist's power takes effect first, since he lost. Loser says Industrialist can win instead of losing, and then the Loser causes the winner to lose, and the loser to win.

That scenario probably only makes sense to me, and I still don't quite get it :P



#3 Treguard

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 11:08 PM

MimeKirby said:

Loser calls an upset, Industrialist ends up losing (before the Loser takes effect), since Loser's power says it takes effect after all other game effects, that could potentially mean Industrialist's power takes effect first, since he lost. Loser says Industrialist can win instead of losing, and then the Loser causes the winner to lose, and the loser to win.
That scenario probably only makes sense to me, and I still don't quite get it :P

Whilst I agree that the ridiculous scenario above would be correct, unfortunately the clause "regardless of other game effects" as an overriding rule, would seem to render this moot. After all, all ships present having been wiped out by meteors.

This makes things tricky as now we have powers that could conceivably trigger (a bonus derived from a loss, as mentioned above) whilst excluding others (any that could potentially turn a loss into a win, ala Loser).. I would almost say that for this one encounter, for the sake of balance and clarity, that no powers would trigger as the hazard interrupts typical encounter procedure. Pretty much a case of "Attack strength greater than 25? all ships go to the warp, next turn"



#4 Brick Top

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 09:55 AM

Hello. I’m part of logical’s CE group and one of those who insisted his power does not apply in the above mentioned scenario. Since we’re both relatively new players, I thought I should bring my own reasoning to the table in order to perhaps reach a more definitive conclusion.

 

To me, this is strictly a matter of the Industrialist’s behavior in a lose-lose situation. Since other aliens’ powers are defined differently, the same rules may not apply. See MimeKirby’s examples - in my opinion, when a Meteor Storm or another effect that causes both sides to lose (such as a failed deal or a Wild Loser) is triggered:

- The Warrior does gain an extra token, because he gets this bonus every time he loses, period (the failed deal is even included on his card).
- The Vacuum does send other players’ ships to the warp because he can do that whenever he loses some himself, regardless of the conditions (or the subsequently targeted players).
- Spiff does not crash land because the loss was not triggered by the cards, but by another game effect. The cards are no longer taken into consideration.
- The Ethic doesn’t get compensation because of the same reason mentioned for Spiff.

The Industrialist’s power does not allow him to “add the card he lost with to his stack unless the opponent can prevent him by allowing him to win”. His power is to face his opponent with a choice. If there’s no choice for the opponent (in this case because he doesn’t have the authority to trump a game effect that specifies both sides, including the Industrialist, are going to lose), then I say the conditions for this particular power are not met. He doesn’t get to automatically add the card to his stack because that would go (I think, and please correct me if I am wrong) beyond the intended use of the power.
If he could, then this could lead to potentially imbalanced scenarios (although this was not the case with our game), such as:

- The Industrialist playing his largest attack during a Meteor Storm, knowing that he can not be prevented from adding it to his stack unless the opponent plays a Negociate. Worst case scenario, he wins the encounter.
- The Industrialist playing his largest attack, then using Emotion Control (since he only needs to reveal an attack in order for it to count for the stack) and refusing to make a deal. Losing three ships for a permanent +20 to +40 sounds like a good deal… Worst case scenario the artefact gets zapped and he wins the encounter.

In order to prevent the Industrialist from stashing whatever attack card he pleases (under certain conditions), his opponent must have the option of letting him win – the “lesser evil” in some cases. Since it’s not up to any player to grant the Industrialist victory after a bilateral loss, I think the most straight-forward option is to say his power doesn’t apply to this scenario. Maybe (and I didn’t think of this at the time of our game) another option would be to say you let him win even though it won’t count because of the other game effect… but this leaves more room for error… Ultimately, the Industrialist shouldn’t get anything when both sides are forced to lose.






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