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Renegade or Heretic?


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#1 Gillam Harrow

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 10:15 AM

I know to the Imperium, the distinction is superfluous. But to Chaos, it might be a bit more Important. How might BC handle Renegades who don't actively seek the help of Chaos, like the Night Lords and the Soul Drinkers?



#2 redhead222

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 10:45 AM

night lords not heritics? you do know that they have at least one deamon prince and likely some possesd members ? so how are they not heretics?

EoM doesn`t see the difrance becaus. it realy doesn`t make much of a difrance too 95% of the ppl you`ll meet.

are you a pritat, rebel, murder, demogog, hereteck whatever you are your a posibal ally or rival for other of your like and a enemy too the EoM



#3 Gillam Harrow

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 10:54 AM

redhead222 said:

night lords not heritics? you do know that they have at least one deamon prince and likely some possesd members ? so how are they not heretics?

i was unaware of that, but they do not actively worship chaos, to my knowledge, so they are more renegades than heretics.

 



#4 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 12:13 PM

Gillam Harrow said:

i was unaware of that, but they do not actively worship chaos, to my knowledge, so they are more renegades than heretics. 

Strictly speaking, they're traitors because they turned against the established orthodoxy of the Imperial Truth (the Horus Heresy wasn't strictly a Heresy as they didn't turn against a religion because the Imperium didn't have one; eight of the nine legions that turned are blasphemers as well, because they denounce the Imperial Creed as it currently exists without having been part of it, while the Word Bearers are Apostates, because they turned their backs on their faith). A heretic would be one who subverts the faith or introduces some unacceptable deviation into it, or any who follow someone who does those things.

The term heretic gets thrown around a lot in 40k, but it's only one of a collection of similar (but not identical) concepts.


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#5 Lord Ork

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 08:20 PM

Well, I think the heretic concept is quite straigthforward. You're with the Imperium of Men, the Ecclesiarchy and the High Lords of Terra or you're heretic.



#6 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 10:11 PM

Lord Ork said:

Well, I think the heretic concept is quite straigthforward. You're with the Imperium of Men, the Ecclesiarchy and the High Lords of Terra or you're heretic.

Except that such a definition would encompass aliens and daemons as well, which it has never done in practice.


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#7 Lord Ork

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 10:27 PM

Ok. You're with the Imperium of Men, the Ecclesiarchy and the High Lords of Terra, or you're heretic, or you're a filthy xenos.

(Only in one case you deserve to live, hopefully).



#8 Voronesh

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 10:47 PM

Wouldnt you be a recidivist first, a renegade secon, to turn into a heretic?

Looking at this from the RT angle. Not everyone in Footfall is a heretic, but most are certainly recidivists and potentiall renegades.



#9 Lightbringer

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:08 PM

N0-1_H3r3 said:

The term heretic gets thrown around a lot in 40k, but it's only one of a collection of similar (but not identical) concepts.

Sort of understandable, as true fanaticism encourages black and white thinking. "You're all going to hell, we're not" is pretty much all the average person needs. Studying the fine shades of variation between types of "heretic" is not the sort of thing encouraged outside the Inqusition.

As an aside, most religions reserve their greatest hatred for apostates, those who turn their back on the "true" faith for another faith or for some theologically insignificant variation on the original. If the wider populance knew about the full history of the Word Bearers, they'd likely become the bete noire of the entire Imperium...but the Inquisition keeps a lid on the full details of the Horus Heresy.

In 40k, there's actually a fair bit of tolerence for diversity within the broad tenets of the Ministorum, but equally any sect which deviates too much is likely to get slapped with a war of faith.  



#10 Mjoellnir

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 01:01 AM

"A Heretic may see the truth and seek redemption. He may be forgiven his past and will be absolved in death. A Traitor can never be forgiven. A Traitor will never find peace in this world or the next. There is nothing as wretched or as hated in all the world as a Traitor." - Cardinal Khrysdam

As far as I know Black Crusade is about those who serve Chaos and those who try to use Chaos (and because of that still serve it). While Gue'vesa may be considered heretics and traitors by the Imperium you probably won't find rules for them in Black Crusade.



#11 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 01:18 AM

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Strictly speaking, they're traitors because they turned against the established orthodoxy of the Imperial Truth (the Horus Heresy wasn't strictly a Heresy as they didn't turn against a religion because the Imperium didn't have one; eight of the nine legions that turned are blasphemers as well, because they denounce the Imperial Creed as it currently exists without having been part of it, while the Word Bearers are Apostates, because they turned their backs on their faith). A heretic would be one who subverts the faith or introduces some unacceptable deviation into it, or any who follow someone who does those things.

The term heretic gets thrown around a lot in 40k, but it's only one of a collection of similar (but not identical) concepts.

I applaud your attempt at interjecting some literacy. 



#12 Gurkhal

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 02:50 AM

I applaud your attempt at interjecting some literacy.

 

As do I. I've always been bothered a bit about how heretic is used as an almost all inclusive phrase.  



#13 Karmadef

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 03:14 AM

1.
a. An opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs, especially dissension from or denial of Roman Catholic dogma by a professed believer or baptized church member.
b. Adherence to such dissenting opinion or doctrine.
2.
a. A controversial or unorthodox opinion or doctrine, as in politics, philosophy, or science.
b. Adherence to such controversial or unorthodox opinion.

During the time of the Great Crusade the Imperial Truth was just that, anything that went against it could be described as a heresy agaisn tthe Imperial Truth so Heresy is perfectly acceptable term by the second definition. 
At the current time frame anyone who doesn't accept the Emporer is a Heretic, Xenos don't count as they aren't people and need to be wiped out as part of the faith, including them as heretics gives them status as people.

As to the difference between Renegades and Heretics in BC I don't think it will be discussed, as was stated this about playing Chaos so Renegades would be outside the scope, Night Lords are wierd, some do worship the dark gods but others just go around terrorising the galaxy in the name of Batman...I mean Night Haunter. Sould Drinkers have turned, or accepted the aid of the Chaos Powers by mistake or something like that I think but are Excamunicate Tratoris so they would be considered heretics. I think the only Space Marine Chapter that is declared Renegade but not heretics is the Knights of Blood (they are a Blood Angel succesor anyway). It gets confusing though.



#14 Deinos

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 10:04 AM

Chaos Undivided has always included those who use Chaos for their own ends. Interesting, to me, that Chaos Undivided encompasses both the most fanatical and least fanatical chaotics.

But yeah, the heretic thing has always struck me as silly. Particularly the Rosarius malfunctioning more often when used by a "heretic" (electronics that malfunction when used by a wholly subjective label, nice), and the Hammer of Heretics talent (I get a +10 to hit against anyone who I dislike).



#15 Cifer

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 04:56 AM

Particularly the Rosarius malfunctioning more often when used by a "heretic" (electronics that malfunction when used by a wholly subjective label, nice)

You mean because that makes less sense than, say, a gadget becoming faster due its colorization?



#16 redhead22

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 05:48 AM

its 40k ppl it doesn`t have too make sense



#17 Gurkhal

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 05:59 AM

 While everything don't have to make logical sense to the 20th century person, there should be some internal logic in the setting. Every time the GM has to explain things which: "that's simply how its writen" - is a sad day.



#18 Decessor

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 07:29 AM

Deinos said:

Chaos Undivided has always included those who use Chaos for their own ends. Interesting, to me, that Chaos Undivided encompasses both the most fanatical and least fanatical chaotics.

But yeah, the heretic thing has always struck me as silly. Particularly the Rosarius malfunctioning more often when used by a "heretic" (electronics that malfunction when used by a wholly subjective label, nice), and the Hammer of Heretics talent (I get a +10 to hit against anyone who I dislike).

Out of the traitor legions, I'm most fond of the Night Lords and Alpha Legion. Both use cunning tactics and neither have great reverence for the chaos powers.

As for the rosarius, it can be a bit silly if it is just "electronics". But considering how 40k tech works, who's to say each one isn't built with "holy" rituals that bind the tech to the Emperor? Taking holy to mean "Emperor-powered psyker power".



#19 Mjoellnir

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 10:09 AM

Decessor said:

As for the rosarius, it can be a bit silly if it is just "electronics". But considering how 40k tech works, who's to say each one isn't built with "holy" rituals that bind the tech to the Emperor? Taking holy to mean "Emperor-powered psyker power".

The problem is if we start with that kind of explanation it would be logical that an untouchable can ignore the Rosarius of an enemy.



#20 Decessor

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 11:22 AM

A fair point. Perhaps the rosarius' ability to distinguish between believers in the Emperor and His foes would be compromised. Or it works on different principles altogether.






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