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Dial Advancement Counters


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#1 MR Suplex

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 04:30 PM

I wanted to post a message and see if I am interpreting each god's dial advancement counter condition correctly:

 

Khorne: Can earn one counter per region per game phase

Nurgle: Can earn one counter per region per game phase

Tzeentch: Can earn one counter per region per game round

Slaanesh" Can earn one counter per region per game round

 

Khorne and Nurgle are explicit, whereas Tzeentch and Slaanesh are implied.  Is this correct?  If so, why do Nurgle and Khorne get more opportunities to earn counters than Tzeentch and Slaanesh?

Thanks for the input.



#2 Pigeonbane

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 05:00 AM

 I noticed the exact same thing last night. I think that your interpretation is correct.



#3 Organous

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 06:55 AM

I am actually in disagreement over this.  Because there's no explicit limitation on timing, I've been ruling that it's each individual action.  It only matters for the Morrslied set though, since Tzeentch has a Chaos card that moves around 2 corruption.  I also had an issue about Slaanesh getting 3+ corruption over multiple phases within the same round.



#4 MR Suplex

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 08:05 AM

Organous said:

I am actually in disagreement over this.  Because there's no explicit limitation on timing, I've been ruling that it's each individual action.  It only matters for the Morrslied set though, since Tzeentch has a Chaos card that moves around 2 corruption.  I also had an issue about Slaanesh getting 3+ corruption over multiple phases within the same round.

 

How do you define something as an "individual action"?  I think this gets way too messy and I can't see how you justify this.



#5 Pigeonbane

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 01:01 AM

Organous said:

I am actually in disagreement over this.  Because there's no explicit limitation on timing, I've been ruling that it's each individual action.  It only matters for the Morrslied set though, since Tzeentch has a Chaos card that moves around 2 corruption.  I also had an issue about Slaanesh getting 3+ corruption over multiple phases within the same round.

So you're seeing it as a limitation on Khorne and Nurgle. They can only trigger once per phase while Tzeentch and Slaanesh can do it once per action. This might make more sense... I'd love to see the developers address this in their FAQ.



#6 MR Suplex

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 03:52 AM

Pigeonbane said:

Organous said:

 

I am actually in disagreement over this.  Because there's no explicit limitation on timing, I've been ruling that it's each individual action.  It only matters for the Morrslied set though, since Tzeentch has a Chaos card that moves around 2 corruption.  I also had an issue about Slaanesh getting 3+ corruption over multiple phases within the same round.

 

 

So you're seeing it as a limitation on Khorne and Nurgle. They can only trigger once per phase while Tzeentch and Slaanesh can do it once per action. This might make more sense... I'd love to see the developers address this in their FAQ.

I've asked for a clarification, as this is obviously open to debate.  I personally do not think Tzeentch and Slaanesh can get more than one DAC per region per round, because nothing about a single action (which is debatable in of itself) is mentioned in the text...just that if two or more corruption are placed in a region with the required elements, a DAC is earned.  Since it says "two OR MORE", this eliminates the chance for a second DAC in the region.



#7 tommh

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 06:30 AM

 See FAQ page 6:

"Once a player fulfills his dial advancement condition for one region in a phase, that condition is fulfilled for the remainder of the phase within that region, however, that condition can still be fulfilled in another region" - This applies to Khorne attacks during summoning phases as well.

 

 

 



#8 MR Suplex

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 07:37 AM

tommh said:

 See FAQ page 6:

"Once a player fulfills his dial advancement condition for one region in a phase, that condition is fulfilled for the remainder of the phase within that region, however, that condition can still be fulfilled in another region" - This applies to Khorne attacks during summoning phases as well.

 

Its decent evidence, but unfortunately in reference to Nurgle, whose card explicitly states that he can get a DAC per region every phase.  It could still be argued that this does not apply to Tzeentch and Slaanesh.

The developers really need to weigh in on this, as there are multiple legitimate interpretations of the rule.  I just wish I could get their attention, as I feel they could resolve this with 2 minutes of their time...



#9 tommh

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 08:00 AM

 Its in reference to a question about Nurgle but its pretty clear in its statement. THe Devs has stated this elsewhere as well (on Board Game Geek I think).   The game is completely unbalanced otherwise.



#10 MR Suplex

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 08:45 AM

tommh said:

 Its in reference to a question about Nurgle but its pretty clear in its statement. THe Devs has stated this elsewhere as well (on Board Game Geek I think).   The game is completely unbalanced otherwise.

It actually isn't clear since its in reference to Nurgle.  One could easily argue that they were referring just to Nurgle (and Khorne), who are the only ones explicitly stated to be able to gain corruption per phase.

I have the same discussion going on Board Game Geek and all the vets acknowledge that this needs clarification.  If you can point to where Eric or one of the other designers weighed in on this, I'll consider it answered.  Otherwise its very much open to debate, as your FAQ example is far from a definitive clarification.

I also don't see how this makes the game unbalanced (in either case), as the chances for Tzeentch and Slaanesh to gain corruption outside the corruption phase are minimal, but it is still possible and does need an answer.



#11 HappyDD

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 10:32 AM

Hi guys,

I'm really liking this thread, lots of discussion. I found this in the FAQ as the answer to "How does Slaanesh earn DACs?":

A: Slaanesh earns one dial advancement counter each
time he places two or more corruption tokens in the
same region as a Noble or Hero token during the
Corruption Step of the Corruption Phase. The dial
advancement condition printed on the Slaanesh Power
Sheet is incorrect.

 

Now, the thing that I see that leads me to believe Slaanesh could earn more than one token per corruption phase is "each time..." So if there are two regions with nobles, and as Slaanesh I place (I dunno) 2 tokens in one and 5 in the other, then I get two DACs, one for each region as I satisfied the requirement. I think the "or more" is with respect to the number of counters placed in the specific region as opposed to the overall number of counters placed in a corruption phase. If I were to place 1 token in each of those regions I just talked about, then I would not score any DACs despite my overall placement of 2 corruption tokens as they were placed at separate "times". In my games we play the same way with Tzeentch and Slaanesh as we do Khorne and Nurgle, despite the noted difference.

 

Further down in the FAQ we get this:

Q: Does placing two corruption tokens
in a region with one magic symbol and
one warpstone token fulfil Tzeentch’s
dial advancement condition?
A: Yes. To earn one dial advancement counter, Tzeentch
must place two or more corruption tokens in a region
with a minimum of two magic symbols, two warpstone
tokens, or at least one of each – one magic symbol and
one warpstone token.

Again, it says "to earn one DAC...", which I read as "each time this happens, Tzeentch gets one." I do agree that clarification would settle this no problem, but in the mean time I'm just gonna stick to what I believe to be the implied rule.

 



#12 MR Suplex

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 11:01 AM

Slaanesh can definitely earn more than one DAC per corruption phase, but as the FAQ explains not more than one DAC per REGION per corruption phase.  The question is, what are the limitations Tzeentch and Slaanesh in terms of earnings DACS per region per round.  Khorne and Nurgle explicitly say one per phase per region, and Slaanesh and Tzeentch do not, which gets us back to the initial question...Is it once per region per round or once per region per "action"?  The FAQ answer just listed this implies (too many things being implied here, unfortunately) that the interpretation of "once per action" is incorrect, but its once again not a definitive piece of evidence.

HappyDD said:

I do agree that clarification would settle this no problem, but in the mean time I'm just gonna stick to what I believe to be the implied rule.

What is the implied rule? That Slaanesh can only earn DACs in the Corruption phase, and that Tzeentch can earn them any time? This doesn't seem correct either, considering they both have the exact same wording on their cards.

In all seriousness, how do we get the developers to answer this?  It would literally take 5 minutes max for them to address this, assuming they know what their own intentions with the rules were...



#13 HappyDD

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 07:49 AM

Ah, I see, "per region per round" is played in our group as 1 even though it isn't stated. It seems like they would have to specify per region per round for Khorne, who triggers off killing one figure. Once you say "place two or more tokens" that covers all the possible numbers of tokens that count in that region in that round... But now I'm seeing your interpretation, where Nurgle gets the region/round clarification but the other "token placers" don't. That is kind of strange. Nurgle does have an upgrade card (I think) that allows the Great Unclean One to place tokens (or something?) Maybe that is what necessitated the clarification if people thought "tokens from cultists" were different from "tokens from other sources"? I am grasping at straws here...

Out of interest, in the games you have played how often is Tzeentch placing two corruption tokens outside of the Corruption phase, thus creating the dilemma? Off the top of my head I know Slaanesh has a card that says something like "Place a corruption token, this doesn't count towards dial advancement" so that can't be it.



#14 HappyDD

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 07:59 AM

I should clarify that we are only playing the Core Set when I make my uninformed statements.



#15 JQueue

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 10:35 AM

My Ruling: Tzeentch and Slaanesh may earn 1 DAC per Region per Phase (not per round).

Reason: There is nothing on the card that says that the act of collecting a DAC for placing 2 or more corruption tokens in a region may only be executed once in a round or for one phase in a round. Hence if I played a card that said "place 2 corruption as you place this card (during the summoning phase)" as Slaanesh on a region with a noble, then placed 2 corruption in that same region during the corruption phase with cultists during the corruption phase, I would consider those to be separate placements on separate phases and I would feel entitled to 2 DACs.

I believe that the reason why Nurgle had the "once per region per phase" clarification on his power card was because he was the only god that could use that information. He was the only god, other than Slaanesh, that could perform multiple placements of corruption in a single region, or even on different phases!

One region per phase was also printed on Khorne's card although he could not use it. This is a part of the reason why I am leaning towards the idea that the designer's general intent may have been one DAC per region per phase.

I believe that if Slaanesh's card place one corruption card did not include the addendum that it does not count for purposes of dial advancement, you could place 2 of them in a region to generate an extra DAC if you had cultists there as well.

And HappyDD this is very important for the Horned Rat expansion, and not for the base version at all.

Namely, the tzeentch Chaos cards "The Blue Scribes" and "Havoc" would be annoying gameplay issues without an official ruling on the question of whether it's per placement or per round. I believe that saying that it is 1 DAC per region per phase as a general rule would be a fair compromise.



#16 HappyDD

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 11:24 AM

JQueue said:

My Ruling: Tzeentch and Slaanesh may earn 1 DAC per Region per Phase (not per round).

That's an interesting ruling, especially because it is the opposite of what it says in the FAQ:

A: Slaanesh earns one dial advancement counter each
time he places two or more corruption tokens in the
same region as a Noble or Hero token during the
Corruption Step of the Corruption Phase. The dial
advancement condition printed on the Slaanesh Power
Sheet is incorrect.

I suppose you could say that a new FAQ is required for the Horned Rat expansion to clear up all these issues. My naive interpretation would be that dial ticks are deliberately not supposed to be as easy for Tzeentch and Slaanesh as they are for Khorne which is why they would have the same limitation as Nurgle (that I filled in for myself, I have to add, not any official ruling), but if new cards raise new issues then I cannot comment on them and will just wait to see what the new FAQ says.



#17 Baenre

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 01:20 PM

What's more interesting is that if you allow Slaanesh to place in any phase and not just per round they end up winning the game using the Horned rat expansion almost 90% of the time.  Why?  Well you see their dial is stupidly short and the keeper of secrets upgrade is ridiculously good, which allows them to just pile up advancement tokens on their dial.  Not to mention Fall from Grace and Rise to glory have very strong synergy with the Keeper upgrade.  Normally you would lose your factions steam as you go along but because their dial is so short when they hit that 2 x tick that allows them two upgrade cards it's like the nail on the coffin.

Even playing it as once per round our group is beginning to suspect that there's something missing from the playtesting of the expansion that hasn't translated well onto the rules of the game as they are now.  It doesn't seem balanced for the other three gods to be forced to all work against Slaanesh to give us a chance at a win.  I say a chance because even actively working against Slaanesh the whole game doesn't mean they won't win.  Their card pool is well suited for a stall game which is all they really need to do anyway.  The only games where we have seen even a relative balance is when we had a 5th player and used the skaven.  In this case the skaven provide enough disruption over the entire board to reel in a run away player somewhat.  We have about a dozen games in ATM so obviously more testing is needed and we are actively trying to see where the Slaanesh weaknesses are with the new set but so far they have a very good setup for this expansion.



#18 JQueue

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 02:18 PM

@HappyDD

Oh, they are limiting it to a SPECIFIC STEP of a SPECIFIC PHASE?! Having a closer look at that part of the faq, I may be inclined to believe with you, however:

The FAQ could be alluding to the fact that in the base game, the corruption step of the corruption phase is the only time that Slaanesh could reasonably drop corruption in a manner that is meaningful towards gaining DACs. Limiting DAC acquistion to a specific step of a specific phase seems extremely wierd and specific, especially when taking the expansion into consideration (which allows the placement of corruption in many different phases and steps).

Also, WAYY different from the printed rules. And this answers nothing about the way Tzeentch might collect DACs as well...

@Baenre

What do you mean if you allow Slaanesh to place at any phase? As far as I know, Slaanesh still does not have any way to place corruption outside of the Corruption Step of the Corruption phase in the expansion without help from Tzeentch...



#19 Hacksaaw

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 04:38 PM

It is possible for Tzeentch and Slannesh to place multiple corruption tokens in the same region in multiple phases using the new cards. 

Which raised a question in todays game.

If Tzeentch places a corruption in the battle phase ( due to its card that preempts battle dice being thrown and has the warriors and greater demons place corruption instead) does this single corruption placing get added to the corruption that a cultist places in the corruption step to give Tzeentch a dial advancement token?

Or does the Tzeenth and SLannesh dial advancement conditions require that the 2+ corruption tokens in the region have to be place in a single placement in a single phase?

 

thanks

 



#20 bioball

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 06:39 PM

Hacksaaw said:

It is possible for Tzeentch and Slannesh to place multiple corruption tokens in the same region in multiple phases using the new cards. 

Which raised a question in todays game.

If Tzeentch places a corruption in the battle phase ( due to its card that preempts battle dice being thrown and has the warriors and greater demons place corruption instead) does this single corruption placing get added to the corruption that a cultist places in the corruption step to give Tzeentch a dial advancement token?

Or does the Tzeenth and SLannesh dial advancement conditions require that the 2+ corruption tokens in the region have to be place in a single placement in a single phase?

 

thanks

 

I would say that if Tzeentch places a single corruption token in a region during the Battle Phase and then places a single corruption token in the same region due to a single cultist being there in the Corruption Phase, then that is 2 corruption tokens in a region and Tzeentch does get a DAC. This is something Nurgle can't due and earn dial advancement tokens.

I'll also side on the argument that once 2+ tokens are placed, over any number of phases, in a region by Tzeentch or Slannesh they earn a 1 dial advancement token for that round, no more. Since there are 9 regions, but 4 Phases that might place corruption (Summon, Battle, Corruption, End) then I think it evens things out for all the gods.






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