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#1 Mortifactor81

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 10:41 AM

  Anyone have any good rules for females players?  We have a female that plays in our group and althought she dosn't mind having to play a male character as a Spacemarine. I thought it'd be nice to possibly have some rules for her to play as a female character maybe as an Inquisitor or a Sister of Battle? I don't know, anyone have any suggestions?



#2 Brand

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 11:24 AM

Mortifactor81 said:

  Anyone have any good rules for females players?  We have a female that plays in our group and althought she dosn't mind having to play a male character as a Spacemarine. I thought it'd be nice to possibly have some rules for her to play as a female character maybe as an Inquisitor or a Sister of Battle? I don't know, anyone have any suggestions?

The straightforward solution if she wants her character to be female is to go with an Inquisitor or SoB.  That'll be a bit more effort for you since it'll throw off the balance a bit.  Space Marines are far tougher than other characters and can take hits that could easily put others down after one shot.  A SoB or Vindicare Assassin can be extremely deadly, but again they won't be able to take hits as well.  The other side to this is that she'll probably be much better than the SMs in terms of skills.  And, you'll have smaller details to work out like the Squad Mode Abilities (do you include her, does having a non-SM member affect Cohesion, etc.).

Another option is to simply allow her to play a female Space Marine.  There are a lot of loopholes where you can explain away a female Chapter.  While no such groups exist in canon, we don't have all of the Chapters detailed.  If someone repeats the "all SMs are male" rule to you, just remember that the book also makes the general statement that Chapters are organized into 10 Companies of 100 SMs (despite the fact those numbers are likely wrong and not all Chapters follow those guidelines).  Also, the book says nothing about Warp-tainted, zombie Space Marines...yet we have the Legion of the Damned.

Ultimately, do what seems best for you and your group and just have fun. 



#3 Bilateralrope

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 12:02 PM

Several options:

 - Screw canon, female space marines will exist in my game.

 - Try to justify having them without breaking canon. This is going to be very hard when you have statements that clearly say that they are only male. Unless you want to be bogged down in arguments about canon, which will all boil down to x isn't canon because I don't like it.

 - It's identical to a Space Marine, except in the name.

 - It's not a Space Marine, but it's good enough to fight alongside them.



#4 Stormast

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 12:04 PM

Brand said:

Mortifactor81 said:

 

  Anyone have any good rules for females players?  We have a female that plays in our group and althought she dosn't mind having to play a male character as a Spacemarine. I thought it'd be nice to possibly have some rules for her to play as a female character maybe as an Inquisitor or a Sister of Battle? I don't know, anyone have any suggestions?

 

 

The straightforward solution if she wants her character to be female is to go with an Inquisitor or SoB.  That'll be a bit more effort for you since it'll throw off the balance a bit.  Space Marines are far tougher than other characters and can take hits that could easily put others down after one shot.  A SoB or Vindicare Assassin can be extremely deadly, but again they won't be able to take hits as well.  The other side to this is that she'll probably be much better than the SMs in terms of skills.  And, you'll have smaller details to work out like the Squad Mode Abilities (do you include her, does having a non-SM member affect Cohesion, etc.).

Another option is to simply allow her to play a female Space Marine.  There are a lot of loopholes where you can explain away a female Chapter.  While no such groups exist in canon, we don't have all of the Chapters detailed.  If someone repeats the "all SMs are male" rule to you, just remember that the book also makes the general statement that Chapters are organized into 10 Companies of 100 SMs (despite the fact those numbers are likely wrong and not all Chapters follow those guidelines).  Also, the book says nothing about Warp-tainted, zombie Space Marines...yet we have the Legion of the Damned.

Ultimately, do what seems best for you and your group and just have fun. 

Brand said:

Another option is to simply allow her to play a female Space Marine.  There are a lot of loopholes where you can explain away a female Chapter.  While no such groups exist in canon, we don't have all of the Chapters detailed.  If someone repeats the "all SMs are male" rule to you, just remember that the book also makes the general statement that Chapters are organized into 10 Companies of 100 SMs (despite the fact those numbers are likely wrong and not all Chapters follow those guidelines).  Also, the book says nothing about Warp-tainted, zombie Space Marines...yet we have the Legion of the Damned.

That example isn't that good. What the books tell us is that most chapters follow the Codex Astartes, and therefore are trying to stick to this organization (some aren't trying that hard, I'm looking at you, Black Templars!). Of course, when one of your companies has just been decimated at war, it can't be made of 100 Marines, etc, etc...

Whereas the books (the canon in general) do tell us that "there is no female Space Marine" (and there is a pseudo-scientific explanation that doesn't explain anything, but that's not the point).

Now the thing is, it's your game, so if you want female Space Marines in it, you do what you want, but that's clearly going against the canon (whereas saying "My chapter is made of 9 companies of 111 SMs each" is completely understandable, canon wise)...

As for the Inquisitor, she'll have lots of Lores, maybe some useful psyker powers, but she'll obviously not do the same amount of damage as the Marines, and not be as tough (though you can give her a Marine-like Power Armor, i.e. the same level of protection, just for balance issues, abstraction FTW, etc). A psyker from Ascension could very well challenge the Marines on the raw power side, but she'll be really squishy. A SoB could be a good fit, but she'll still miss some punch (though you could, for example, level her bolter to Astartes level, saying that she gets access to the same level of craftmanship as them, etc, etc...).

A Vindicare could very well survive, seeing how high her Dodge throw will be, and how many Dodge/turn she may have. So that may be the most survivable character in DH compared to Space Marines.

Overall, the Space Marines may often have to protect the female PC, but that's part of the fun and could make for some nice storytelling. In my IRL group, we had an Inquisitor, and we had lots of fun (I usually spent my Reactions trying to get in the way of the attacks that were aimed at him, though I nearly always missed them :D). So it's possible, but it'll make you have to be a bit more careful. But it can be cool.



#5 Brand

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 12:26 PM

Stormast, read pg 14 of the DW book.  I quote:

"Each of the Chapters into which the Legions were subdivided consisted of roughly 1,000 warriors.  A large section of the Codex Astartes is dedicated to structuring the organisation of these Chapters.  A Chapter consists of ten companies each numbering 100 Space Marines."

pg 11

"Space Marines are organised into roughly a thousand Chapters, with each Chapter numbering approximately a thousand warriors organised into ten companies of a hundred troops each."

It doesn't say most Chapters.  Going by those statements, every single group of Space Marines calling itself a Chapter structures itself that way...which, obviously, we all know to be not true (Black Templars and Space Wolves, for instance).  And, yeah, I know it says otherwise elsewhere, but those are perfect examples why you have to take such sweeping statements with a grain of salt.

There are plenty of ways to explain away a female Space Marine (lost Primarch, mutation of the geneseed resulting in rejection when placed in males, etc.).  If you want to go the route of a lost Primarch, for example, you won't even be specifically countering canon since that part of canon is just a blank right now.  Female SMs aren't canon, sure, but you won't be deliberately refuting canon (like a DW game against Necrons would without a reeeeeeeeeally good excuse).

Way too much is made of "canon."  Stormast's games aren't canon.  Mine aren't canon.  To my knowledge, there isn't a single GW-endorsed canon game of DW in existence.  As soon as characters are made, as soon as someone opens his or her mouth, as soon the GM gives a name to an otherwise faceless NPC in a published adventure...then canon goes out the window.

I have to say I find the hypocrisy of this kinda funny.  Suggest female Space Marines and you'll get a ton of people crying "that's not canon...go ahead and do it but you won't be playing a REAL game of Deathwatch."  Yet, people posting custom-made Chapters are often praised for being creative.  It just makes me shake my head.



#6 Stormast

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 12:37 PM

You're reading too far. I'm not saying "You won't be playing a real game of DW". I'm saying "You have to know what you're doing if you go that way against canon".

And please use your brains, these passage you quote do mean "Most of the chapters are made that-a-way", you're only being annoying if you don't see what's implied. The thing is, theoretically, every chapter should be made of 1000 Marines, divided into 10 companies. Then you've got "real life aleas", and those who are not willing to do as they're told, and there you go with the examples of those who do not respect that limit. But clearly, it has been stated that most of the chapters are within those bounds, more or less.

Now, what I was saying is that when you choose to have female Marines, then you clearly go against something that has been made clear by the canon. So if you are willing to do so, you must be thinking that it may involve more or less throwing the rest off: if you disregard one thing, then nothing is sure. Canon is a common background for everybody. When you disable one of its points (the point being clever or not, that's not what I'm interested in here), then you've opened a possibility.

So what I'm saying is that it is much easier to incorporate female DH-Ascension characters into a DW game than handwaving the "female SM" stuff and hope nobody will say "hey but it's not possible". And if you do want to do so, then you'll just have to warn the players and make it clear that it's the only exception you make.

If you find that hypocritical, then I'll just say I don't understand what you may be thinking or what you've been taught about hypocrisy.

And the thing is, the OP was talking about the options of using DH characters, so I'd rather like this thread to stay on topic and talk about the (numerous) options there are than arguing with you for the sake of arguments on something I don't see as particularily relevant. But then, if you do want to raise such a debate, be my guess.



#7 Brand

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 12:50 PM

I wasn't referring only to your post; this is a subject that's come up a lot.  And, there have been people that have said it won't be a real game with females SMs.  Maybe not you, but I didn't say that you did. 

Those passages may very well mean "most groups" but that's not what they say.  You could easily say the same for the "all SMs are male" passage by that reckoning.  I'm not saying that's what it means, just that it could if that's how you interpret things.

When there are easy ways around it, if not entire blanks in canon, then you aren't explicitly rejecting that canon.  It's not the same as starting a Necron-Imperium war 100 years before the supposed first encounter of Necrons.

I've seen suggestions for SW successor Chapters, even though only the Wolf Brothers were canon.  There were no cries of "canon-breaking" then.  It's really only an issue with female SMs.  Some of the same people who've praised these new Chapters vehemently argued against female SMs because of canon.  That's hypocritical.

Again, not saying you were part of that.  I was just referencing your post because you brought up the canon issue.  The OP was about female ideas in general, but I'm fine with leaving discussion to DH characters.  I don't see this issue as one that anyone will change their minds about.



#8 Durandal7

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 01:36 PM

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you Brand on at least two points.

 

1. All Space Marines are Male.

Yes they are and this is extremely well backed up with canon. Look at any of the SM style augmented/modified humans and you'll find they're all male. This includes Primarchs. Not a one is male. The location of the fluff as to why is not currently known to me (I don't have the specific book infront of me but I suspect the Codex Astartes books will tell you) but I do recall it has to do with keying the Zygotes to particular male tissues and hormoes. Yes not real science, I'm not defending that aspect.

The closes women can get to SM level in 40k is SoB or Inquisitor. Which is only slightly below or equal to. Even higher possibly depending on the situation and politics etc etc.

2.

It is not hypocritical to be against female SM's as being non-canon but in favour of homebrew Chapters. It is known and acknowledged (I'm sure by GW and certainly the fans)  that there are more chapters unknown and not currently recorded in any fluff than do. Therefore it is entirely reasonable to create new Chapters and create a history for them. I would argue, however, that they should not be allowed to have taken part in any 'major' operations (Armageddon etc) unless you're creating a named but not coloured Chapter as it were.

 

I'm sure there is more but its almost 2am and I'm tired :)

 

-Durandal


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#9 Brand

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 02:13 PM

1.  No, all SMs we've seen are male.  It is believed that only males can be SMs since, to this point, females haven't been able to accept the geneseed.  By current canon, sure, all SMs are male.  That doesn't mean that a female SM couldn't possibly exist without shattering the timeline or what we really know.  I bet that, until the Legion of the Damned came along, everyone thought SMs couldn't be zombies, either.  We're talking about one of the worst-preserved canons in all of sci fi.  The number of gaps and changes that have occurred over the editions is staggering, with entire races being ignored and retcons changing things (like the Genestealer/Tyranid connection).  2nd ed Space Wolves Codex explicitly states there was only one separation to form a single, failed successor.  Yet Rites of Battle leaves the option of such successors open.  40k canon is what you make of it.

2.  Supporting one thing not supported by canon and not supporting another strictly because it isn't canon...that is absolutely hypocritical.  No matter how cool the Chapter you make up is, it does not exist in the "canon" of 40k.  Just as there's no canon saying a lost Primarch landed on a planet ruled by Amazons, took over, and many years later picked up on the whole Space Marine thing and decided to see if these warrior women couldn't accept his geneseed with enough trial and experimentation.  That's not canon, but it can easily fit in the knowledge/history gaps of 40k  - just like the Pretty Prancing Ponies Space Marine Chapter, if someone at GW wanted to make it, could be based on a far-flung planet.  (note: I am not endorsing the creation of the Pretty Prancing Ponies in any way, shape, or form )

Again, I think it's best to say that some like females SMs, some don't.  It's best to just let people play the way they want to play and not try to discourage them.

Back to the original topic, the Vindicare would be the best non-SM choice for combat.  Depending on what sort of missions/storyline you intend to run, a Rogue Trader could also work if you're careful.  With the increasing wars in the Jericho Reach, DW ships like Thunder's Word could be kept busy and the team could have a specific RT ship to ferry them around on their missions and the captain could even join them.  You'll have to be good and provide ample reason for the RT to come along (and not get blown apart too easily).  I have little experience playing Rogue Trader so I'll defer to those who have experience and know a bit more on the survivability of such characters.



#10 Lex1nat0r

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 03:54 PM

Normally I'm a big stickler for canon, even with its myriad inconsistencies, and anyone in my DW group suggesting the existence of female SMs would be summarily executed.

However, if you want to make your version of the 40K 'verse include a long-lost amazonian chapter then by all means go ahead. No one can really stop you. I certainly wouldn't have a problem with it unless GW started making female SMs canon. Then I would raeg hard.

If, however, you want to avoid all this theological debate, I would say let a SoB tag along with the kill-team.That's what I did, using a hilarious mash-up of a DW tactical marine and the ascended Sororitas from Heresy Begets Retribution, found in the Support section of the Dark Heresy pages.



#11 isidro

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 10:06 PM

 

Personally I don't like Female Marines. IMO Marines are Giant, muscled slabs of testosterone, sweat and manly cliches! Except ofc they have no sexual drive and usually steroids cause testicles to shrink... Imagine what kind of steroids marines use....

but if there are rules for making chapters and a couple of neverheard of Primarchs...

- Why not a female one?

- Or a progenoid gland that was "saved" by beeing implanted on female bodies? You have a good excuse of the damaged one from the ravenguard.

- Fabius bile experiments on females and somehow a splinter chapter is formed... They fight for the empire as semi-renegades? Kinda like the Soul Drinkers from the novels...

 

Go for it. If a million worlds won't give you leeway to experiment, nothing will.

Isi



#12 Durandal7

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 11:48 PM

As I predicted:

Codex Astartes page 7

(In relation to Zygote implantation, selection and initiation of new potentials)

They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening.

Now you could argue that someone somewhere, probably AdMech, futzed about with the gene seed to create female SM's. But to suggest what would essentially be correcting the Emperors work can only be seen as deeply heretical/heretekical.

 

But as the man says..back to the original question..

 

If you want someone to come from DH/RT into DW, you have to gear them up to the gunnels to give them a half decent chance of surviving. What I predict to kill the team I DM fors Inquisitor isn't the gribblies and nasties and what not but the environment. All the things that SM's are immune/super boosted against but normal humans aren't...


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#13 Maelflux

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 12:53 AM

Mortifactor81 said:

  Anyone have any good rules for females players?  We have a female that plays in our group and althought she dosn't mind having to play a male character as a Spacemarine. I thought it'd be nice to possibly have some rules for her to play as a female character maybe as an Inquisitor or a Sister of Battle? I don't know, anyone have any suggestions?

My best suggestion would be an Inquisitor/psyker. They can pack a crazy punch, especially if you use the DH Ascended book. And there are also some fairly good protective powers I believe, which would be the main worry. And it would also tie in well with Deathwatch and the very close ties to the Inquisition, imo.

If you want to use the Sister of Battel approach,I would probably beef up the Faith powers to some degree. But I think the Inquisitor approach makes most sense, really.

As for the female marines discussion that already started: Do we really need to mess up another post with 30 pages of those same arguments?....



#14 Brand

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 04:09 AM

Maelflux said:

Mortifactor81 said:

 

  Anyone have any good rules for females players?  We have a female that plays in our group and althought she dosn't mind having to play a male character as a Spacemarine. I thought it'd be nice to possibly have some rules for her to play as a female character maybe as an Inquisitor or a Sister of Battle? I don't know, anyone have any suggestions?

 

 

My best suggestion would be an Inquisitor/psyker. They can pack a crazy punch, especially if you use the DH Ascended book. And there are also some fairly good protective powers I believe, which would be the main worry. And it would also tie in well with Deathwatch and the very close ties to the Inquisition, imo.

If you want to use the Sister of Battel approach,I would probably beef up the Faith powers to some degree. But I think the Inquisitor approach makes most sense, really.

As for the female marines discussion that already started: Do we really need to mess up another post with 30 pages of those same arguments?....

It's never come up for me, but I considered letting a SoB use Demeanors multiple times to activate her Faith abilities.



#15 Akil

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 11:55 AM

Initially, I had this, very situation. Two guys one chick. Ended up in two Vanilla Marines and an Inquisitor. Problem solved, at least ithought so.
Thing is, the major fluff for an Inquisitor is her retunie. Wich gives a sour feeling not letting her have one, since it extremly complicates matters. What works better is a Interrogator on behalf one of the Ordo Inquisitors. Makes more sense often (expandable some how, still i have first hand reliable intel, usually no second agendas).

Well for SoB, heck took a look at the Erratas? at least the actuall complete Weapon lists we collected from RT/DH/DW, well SoB Bolters are not that much weaker than Astartes Weapons. So it fits, also Faith does have an edge or two. Especally with myself as GM, i like Horror in Space. being abel to ward against corruption is very practical =D. So they can work well along, also they do not Stick out so much at least without Armor. Better abel to blend in with Locals in Hive Worlds. And thats a viable Campaing Option. Secret Alien Cults, Ancient Ruins in the deeper Layers of a Hive World and so forth. Why the Sister is there for many Missions will need more work.

For Female Marines...

Hell with it =)
Munchkin clicheé is hot babes with big guns. For fun: yes. Acting in canon and phatos, well: Guys pull better of speeches before battel or in climax of a scene splatterd with blood. It's feelling coolnes. Part of what I enjoy as a GM. Breathtaking sights in the minds of my players, then the mood develops... ah well you know.



#16 Bilateralrope

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 03:35 PM

Brand said:

We're talking about one of the worst-preserved canons in all of sci fi.

 

That just makes the bits that aren't contradicted even stronger because they are bits that remain fixed. And lets face it there is no piece of 40k canon that even hits at female space marines.  Not even among chaos forces that have been mutated by Slaanesh.

 



#17 Brand

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 03:55 PM

Bilateralrope said:

Brand said:

 

We're talking about one of the worst-preserved canons in all of sci fi.

 

 

 

That just makes the bits that aren't contradicted even stronger because they are bits that remain fixed. And lets face it there is no piece of 40k canon that even hits at female space marines.  Not even among chaos forces that have been mutated by Slaanesh.

 

To those of you that worry overly much about preserving canon, I refer you to GW's take on the matter.

Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...

Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.

I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it.

Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note that answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends".

But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.

It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nucelar war; that nails it for me.

Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy.

To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you.

That's a quote from Marc Gascoigne that I've seen posted on a few different sites.  According to GW themselves, there are no absolutes in the canon of 40k.  What is one person's absolute may just be another piece of propaganda.  That's why the history and background of the setting is so fluid.  Take the Horus Heresy, for example.  A lot of details about that have changed over the years.

That's why female Space Marines don't magically break the system.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled topic (hopefully).



#18 Decessor

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 12:15 AM

I offered a female player in my campaign three options, once it was clear she did not want to play cross-gender.

1. Play a character is that is functionally equivalent to a space marine with equivalent gear. e.g. sister of battle with heavy bionics, bioengineered psyker.

2. Play an ascended character from Dark Heresy.

3. Play a Rogue Trader class.

Gear for 1 would have been functionally astartes gear or actual astartes gear. Gear for 2 or 3 any of the basic gear (rare or below) with a bunch of best quality items such as weapons and armour.

She picked 2, leading to a Sister of Battle/Crusader and for one mission an Imperial Psyker/Primaris Psyker. Both made an impact, even in the company of space marines.



#19 Siranui

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 12:20 AM

Brand said:

Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000...

Wow. That's lame. That's like just saying 'we're sloppy, and can't be bothered too much about internal consistency'.

 

Not sure where all the talk of 'lost' Primarchs is coming from... Those ends were tied up a while ago, albeit in vague terms, I believe?



#20 Brand

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 02:45 AM

Were they?  I haven't heard anything about them.  Any idea where it happened?






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