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Visity the Haunted City!!!


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#1 f7eleven

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 05:05 AM

 Here's my second place decklist from the Baltimore, MD Regionals:

3x Peasant Militia
3x Huntsmen
3x Nimble Spearman
2x Knights Panther
3x Rodrik's Raiders
3x Friedrich Hemmler

3x Innovation
3x Long Winter
1x Ancient Map
3x Will of the Electors
3x Judgement of Verena
2x Pilgrimage

3x Visit the Haunted City

3x Contested Village
3x Derricksburg Forge
3x City Gates
3x Church of Sigmar
3x Light of Morrslieb

 

I don't think I'd change any card in hindsight.  There was never a game that I wasn't in complete control of -- even games 2 and 3 of the final round, that I ended up losing.  In that round, against another Empire control deck, second game I drew my last card with my opponent having only one card left in his deck.  Then in game three, my last attack was one damage short of winning the match and I decked again on my next turn.

T mentioned it in another thread, but I think exploiting Visit the Haunted City is the way to go.  So much so that I was testing another deck that ran 3x each of Ancient Map and A Noble Quest and didn't even run the 9-card Judgement package.

I expect Judgement to join the restricted list soon and Visit the Haunted City to become unique (or join the list as well).

 



#2 Vitamin T

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 11:06 AM

 I got the feeling from Lukas at the FFG regional that some kind of change to Haunted City is Likely (probably becoming unique).  

 

Were city gates better for you than something like hidden grove would have been?  It looks like a strong empire list.


TL



#3 Kragg

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 06:52 PM

Now you feel the OP coming from judgement package and the new quest, when months ago we italians were talking about that, no1 were even listening at us...to much busy talking about how dangerous were DE, nothing compared to the new empire.

 

I doubt making the quest unique will resolve the balance on the game, it will be much better to put it directly in the restricted list with verena.

 

 



#4 f7eleven

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 07:23 PM

 I went with City Gates (and Nimble Spearmen) for protection and speed against other Judgement decks.  And there were some times in testing where 6 2-cost, 2-loyalty supports (Church and Grove) in the deck made for some frustrating first turns (I HATE paying for loyalty icons :-P ).  Plus, without City Gates, I was filling one zone (usually Quest) with developments for insurance against JoV+WotE+LW.  Gates let me do both side zones at the same time.  And it makes Long Winter a bit more versatile.

The Groves were hit or miss (or harmful) in the mirror during testing.  Soooo... let your opponent play it for you and use the ability to your advantage when you can.

I stand by that choice if you're expecting to face a lot of control (which I was - and did).  If I'd expected lots of fast rush decks with Skaven, I might change my mind.

 



#5 Vitamin T

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 02:58 AM

I wouldnt say that no one believed that Empire was going to be the best deck.  I had said that I thought empire was the best deck even before Visit the Haunted City came out.



#6 Vitamin T

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 02:58 AM

I wouldnt say that no one believed that Empire was going to be the best deck.  I had said that I thought empire was the best deck even before Visit the Haunted City came out.



#7 jogo

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 03:15 AM

I would add Infiltrate to protect yourself against decking and gaining even more control- awesome card.

If you have damage problems the third knights panter is probably totally worth it.



#8 Djibi

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 09:17 PM

f7eleven said:

I expect Judgement to join the restricted list soon and Visit the Haunted City to become unique (or join the list as well).

 

 

Stop asking for restriction. Look at Vitamin T's deck, he didn't need to play Empire to win at the FFG LCG days. Try to be creative, you don't need limitation, this is how the metagame would have to work.



#9 DB.Cooper

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 03:24 AM

Djibi said:

f7eleven said:

 

I expect Judgement to join the restricted list soon and Visit the Haunted City to become unique (or join the list as well).

 

 

 

 

Stop asking for restriction. Look at Vitamin T's deck, he didn't need to play Empire to win at the FFG LCG days. Try to be creative, you don't need limitation, this is how the metagame would have to work.

 

Nice deck, at first! :)

 

I guess everyone around here can be "creative", I don't see any boring discussion about strategies and deckbuilding...I just see Verena winning (or getting 2nd place...very rare) almost everywhere. And good ideas do nothing against brokens. 

Visit the Haunted City is totally wrong as well as the whole environment around "Verena" (known as the "evil granny" eheh), IMHO, 'cause I see it the only unlimited card in the game that gets direct advantage frome a basic game mechanics (playing developements)...This means that you cannot prevent me from gettin' the token (aside targetting the unit, obviously) and that if I get it out before you do in a mirror match, I'll probably win, 'cause turn 2 you won't get the things you planned to get. 

And then, it's not unique. Two of 'em in play and it's over. 

I cannot see any other card like that: Mining Tunnels had the same impact and there it goes: "restricted". :) Warpstone? Restricted. 

Fine with them. 

But I really see a deserved restriction for lots of cards before "Soul Stealer".

 

I'm not complaining just to do it: I wrote my thoughts to ffg and I'm still playin' with passion. But I do think, I repeat, that there are some "playtesting" issues to be solved...

And, as someone knows, I'm an Empire/Dark Elf player: I do like control decks...

But that's not "controlling", that's "annoying". :)

 



#10 Papa Khann

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 04:15 AM

Djibi said:

f7eleven said:

 

I expect Judgement to join the restricted list soon and Visit the Haunted City to become unique (or join the list as well).

 

 

 

 

Stop asking for restriction. Look at Vitamin T's deck, he didn't need to play Empire to win at the FFG LCG days. Try to be creative, you don't need limitation, this is how the metagame would have to work.

I think the issue is actually that, right now, you either play the Visit the Haunted City Empire deck, or you build a deck specifically to play against that deck. I don't believe anything else is viable at the moment. And that's not a good thing for the play environment.

That said, I don't believe Verena needs to be added to the Restricted list. It's a very strong card, but it can be recovered from.

I do believe that Visit the Haunted City is a horribly broken card. At the very least, it needs to be Unique. My guess is that it will need to not only be made Unique, but also added to the Restricted list (and no, I don't think Wilhelm would be the auto-pick between the two for Empire decks, were it added to the Restricted list, even if it was made Unique as well. I think it's that good).

Papa 

 



#11 Vitamin T

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 05:22 AM

 I agree with Papa Khann.  While I dont feel like empire is unbeatable at the moment it is clearly the strongest archtype and you must either play it or play to beat it.  Haunted city is certainly more deserving of being restricted than Whilhelm in my opinion.



#12 HappyDD

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 08:07 AM

Vitamin T said:

While I dont feel like empire is unbeatable at the moment it is clearly the strongest archtype and you must either play it or play to beat it.

Hi guys,

Vitamin T made this point but I see it a lot in different formats, essentially all saying the same thing: the deck is too tough. Now, I'm by no means a card game lifer so maybe I'm just a stupid n00b, but isn't this the kind of thing people talk about when they discuss meta? Sure, W:I doesn't have the card pool to support as many archetypes as, say, Magic, but if enough anti-Verena decks enter the mix then won't there be an incentive to playing non-Verena decks that aren't vulnerable to the anti-Verena decks? Maybe there aren't enough players at these tourneys to get the right mix?

Lots of great points are made in these forums but I think that part of the issue is the community, in my mind, is still kind of small. In a small community some success will be seen and everyone will copy it, then lament the lack of other options to combat the copied deck. Thing is, all these people are talking to each other on the same forums... I dunno, I don't think we should get as down on the game as we are getting. Vitamin T won a king of the hill tourney with Chaos! Chaos! A race that is habitually dissed every single time there is a card preview!

It'd be great to see creative decks making it, and we don't really know how many are out there doing well on here.

/ramble

OP: Congrats on the silver medal! I feel your pain over losing the almost-mirror-match.

 

 



#13 Papa Khann

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 09:29 AM

I didn't mean to come across as being down on the game at all. I think the game has a very good set of mechanics driving it, and I'm actually quite enthusiastic about the game.

I just have a problem with Visit the Haunted City. Imho, most deck designs are going to have a tough time accomplishing much against it. It's tough when the other guy is pushing all your support cards up to the Battlefield. Using a Quest card no less (meaning it can't be removed from play... and no, I don't want to see a "magic bullet" card to destroy quests, because I don't want to have to pack it in every deck I make).

Papa

 



#14 HappyDD

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 11:08 AM

And I totally didn't mean it sounded like you were saying "I'm 10 seconds away from dropping this unbalanced game! WAAAAARGH!" You have balanced points, but you know what I mean when I say that sometimes the points are less balanced.

 



#15 HappyDD

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 11:09 AM

"..The points made by other people on this topic are less balanced" is what I meant to say.



#16 Vitamin T

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 11:17 AM

 I totally agree with you Happy.  I think that there are decks out there that will beat Empire and decks that those decks are vulnerable to.  However the events and really the community as a whole is small enough that things frequently dont make it past the stage of "X Deck is the best so I'll play that'.  Going into the world championships almost everyone thought that HE bolt thrower, not dwarves, was the best deck.  I played an anti-support card dwarf deck and was able to defeat Bolt Thrower many times on the way to the top.  (I think that a version of the empire thrower deck I played against in the semis was probably the best deck at the time though)

 

I feel like there are some Orc and Chaos builds (maybe some dwarf decks also) that have a more than 50% win rate vs empire.  Probably not by a lot, Empire is very strong and if you have out two manned Visits with a morrslieb in play almost nothing can beat that, but still an over 50% rate in my opinion.

 

 Of course everything will likely be turned upside down by the upcoming legends expansion, but I still feel that either Judgement or Visit (perhaps both) would be better selections for the restricted list that Whilhelm.  During the two events that I won at FFG last weekend I played against empire quite a bit.  I'm pretty sure that whilhelm trigged his action against me 0-1 times.  He did some damage and he was in play during some of the games I lost but really he could have been black knight of morr and done the same thing.

 

TL



#17 jogo

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 01:21 AM

Papa Khann said:

Stop asking for restriction. Look at Vitamin T's deck, he didn't need to play Empire to win at the FFG LCG days. Try to be creative, you don't need limitation, this is how the metagame would have to work.

 

 

I think the issue is actually that, right now, you either play the Visit the Haunted City Empire deck, or you build a deck specifically to play against that deck. I don't believe anything else is viable at the moment. And that's not a good thing for the play environment.

I had some success with another Empire deck not being Verena/Haunted/Dev-Control beating Verena and any other deck thrown at me - but only with empire.



#18 DB.Cooper

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 02:59 AM

I think I'm pretty balanced in my comments. I'm not leaving the game, I'm not hatin' FFG, I'm not cryin'. :) I just write my point of view and my point of view is based on what I see. Happy to hear that I can be wrong, but what I see it's clear: Empire is not unbeatable anymore, but it's...kind of. 

Wilhelm is one of the most broken cards in the game, especially in an environment where VTHC is not restricted and unique neither. Grow up your kingdom zone, get 100 resources and 1 card per turn, let's see who'll win.  :)

 

Yes: you can get back from Verena...BUt you can't recover after it if the same deck as options to:

- control Supports;

- contro Units;

- move stuff around;

- do 5+ damages attacks, as well as an orc deck (Wilhelm + Panthers + Pistoliers/Taal);

- move back to hands units;

- and so on...

 

The best thing of LCGs are FACTIONS: each faction has always been full of good thematic capabilities...but still "weaknesses"...And Empire is the only faction that has no weak points right now (Orcs are fine). 

And the comparison with Magic is not that good: not because I didn't get it, but because Magic is exactly what W:I is right now; 2-3 decks competition. I don't know if there are ex-Magic players around...I can make lots of example, if needed. 

 

And again: I've always said that VITAMIN T read perfectly the meta: the main deck is a unitless combo? Break the meta: go anti-support...great choice, great reward! ;) I did almost the same thing in a local tournament at that time and built I think one of the first Orc Control decks around...But THROWER wasn't unbeatable. It's never been.

Verena/VTHC decks are "perfect". I see them winning again the best builds around (Orc Reanimation/Control, Orc Rush...).

Chaos is finally gettin' out the black hole, Orc Reanimator/control deck is powerful and some Dark Elves are doing great...But Verena is still at the top, even where it's not the most played deck (avoiding the criticism of the ones who say that it wins because 80% of players plays it). 

 

I'm not a "tier 1" deckbuilder, but I know some t1 builders around here and in our country...And I trust 'em as well as I trust you. 

You say that things are gettin' better? I believe it, maybe I can see it too...But I'm pretty sure of what I see: THE DAMNED GRANNY is stil on top of the meta and needs to be restricted with VTHC being restricted or made unique. 



#19 tako

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 02:09 PM

I am still very new to W:I, but for me, what is happening is just what I expected from a "Living" Card Game. The dynamics shift and at different points in time, some factions and strategies will emerge as dominant, only to be replaced by others as new cards and play mechanisms and possibly restrictions are made available.

I think to design a meta game in which all factions are balanced at any point in time is virtually impossible and would be very restrictive for the design and the content of the battle packs ad extensions. But I do not have a problem with a temporary dominance as it is part of the challenge and fun to continue to adjust your play style to the shifting powers and options during the games lifecycle. Even if there is a dominance for a while, at some point it will be mitigated (or rather moved) and in the mean time even if I win against such a deck only 1 time out of 4, it is all the more satisfying when I do. Some of it is down to luck I guess, but I still find it satsifying to think about how I can counter the supposedly unbeatable decks.

 

 



#20 Vitamin T

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 02:23 PM

I feel the same way Tako.  Usually when a cycle of battle packs ends things are pretty close to balanced.  At the end of the corruption cycle everything but high elves could put out a playable deck while at the end of the enemies cycle everyone other than chaos had a playable list. 






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