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[Rule Question] Forest Snare + Shadow cards


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#1 faith_star83

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 02:55 PM

Forest Snare
Type: Attachment Sphere: Lore
Cost: 3
Item. Trap.
Attach to an enemy engaged with a player.
Attached enemy cannot attack.

(Thanks a lot to cardgamedb.com)

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So when I played my lore deck I made great use of the forest snare. Awesome card. But what happens to Shadow Cards?

The rules say to deal the shadow cards "at the beginning of the combat phase" (p.18) to each enemy that is engaged. Then the rules go on to "Resolving Enemy Attacks".

1. Choose an enemy. The first player chooses which attack (among the enemies to which he is engaged) to resolve first.

2. Declare defender.

3. Resolve shadow effect.

4. Determine combat damage.

Ok, so my problem was that I don't know which (if any) of these combat steps an enemy that cannot attack goes through. Is just step 4 skipped? That would mean I still have to declare a defender...but since the enemy cannot attack that doesn't make much sense. But if we skip through all the combat steps, what happens to the shadow card dealt at the beginning of the phase?

The way I played was, that I dealt shadow cards and revealed them and played the shadow effect anyway. But I don't think that's right. Following the rules probably the enemy just keeps the shadow cards and once / if he gets rid of the trap they all trigger at the third combat step. Is that how we should play this? On top of things I drew Ungloianth's Spawn as a Shadow card for the Snared Enemy (while playing the Passage Through Mirkwood quest). That's basically why I decided to play the shadow effects and discard the shadow cards anyway.

Anybody had a similar problem already?

 



#2 Bohemond

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 03:20 PM

The monster never attacks, so it doesn't go through any of these steps.  You never select it, you never chose if you want to defend, and, most importantly, the monster does not get a shadow card.



#3 faith_star83

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 03:30 PM

I agree this would be the best solution, but the rules aren't very clear on this (cf first two paragraphs on p18). But I guess common sense dictates us to play it the way you suggest. Thanks or the insight.

Btw, love Forest Snare. It basically defeats an enemy for three. Since he is engaged, his Threat Strength doesn't count anymore, but he'll also not attack anyway! Trapped in the forest for good Gotta love them rangers!



#4 qwertyuiop

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 03:34 PM

faith_star83 said:

I agree this would be the best solution, but the rules aren't very clear on this (cf first two paragraphs on p18). But I guess common sense dictates us to play it the way you suggest. Thanks or the insight.

Btw, love Forest Snare. It basically defeats an enemy for three. Since he is engaged, his Threat Strength doesn't count anymore, but he'll also not attack anyway! Trapped in the forest for good Gotta love them rangers!

 

Forest Snare helped me and a friend not get brutally murdered during the Anduin scenario.



#5 Bohemond

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 03:36 PM

Only down side of forest snare is that, in general, the enemy gets to attack once before you can use it.  but, yes, it is a solid card.



#6 jhaelen

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 05:40 AM

faith_star83 said:

Anybody had a similar problem already?

I've been wondering about that as well. I think technically you draw one Shadow card for each monster but the card is then discarded without being revealed.



#7 Acererak

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 05:54 AM

jhaelen said:

faith_star83 said:

 

Anybody had a similar problem already?

 

I've been wondering about that as well. I think technically you draw one Shadow card for each monster but the card is then discarded without being revealed.

 

 

I agree.

 

The Shadow card gets drawn since this is done before any step of combat start.

It surely won´t get played since that step is in the middle of the attack which that enemy couldn´t start.

My guess it´s just discard it at the end of the phase with no effect.



#8 CrowOfPyke

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 07:00 AM

Acererak said:

jhaelen said:

 

faith_star83 said:

 

Anybody had a similar problem already?

 

I've been wondering about that as well. I think technically you draw one Shadow card for each monster but the card is then discarded without being revealed.

 

 

 

 

I agree.

 

The Shadow card gets drawn since this is done before any step of combat start.

 

I disagree.  Drawing an Encounter card for its Shadow Effect is part of "Resolving Enemy Attacks".  But the enemy cannot attack thanks to Forest Snare.  Therefore there is no "Resolving Enemy Attacks", which means no Encounter card is drawn for its Shadow Effect.



#9 monkeylite

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 07:15 AM

CrowOfPyke said:

I disagree.  Drawing an Encounter card for its Shadow Effect is part of "Resolving Enemy Attacks".  But the enemy cannot attack thanks to Forest Snare.  Therefore there is no "Resolving Enemy Attacks", which means no Encounter card is drawn for its Shadow Effect.

'Deal 1 shadow card to each enemy' (p.31) is the very first thing of the combat phase before any talk of resolving enemy attacks.



#10 PWBrian

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 07:24 AM

monkeylite said:

CrowOfPyke said:

 

I disagree.  Drawing an Encounter card for its Shadow Effect is part of "Resolving Enemy Attacks".  But the enemy cannot attack thanks to Forest Snare.  Therefore there is no "Resolving Enemy Attacks", which means no Encounter card is drawn for its Shadow Effect.

 

 

'Deal 1 shadow card to each enemy' (p.31) is the very first thing of the combat phase before any talk of resolving enemy attacks.

Yes, but resolving the shadow card is part of the attack.  So, it seems like it would either be pointless to attach a shadow card, or it would be a means of removing cards from the encounter deck.



#11 monkeylite

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 07:28 AM

PWBrian said:

Yes, but resolving the shadow card is part of the attack.  So, it seems like it would either be pointless to attach a shadow card, or it would be a means of removing cards from the encounter deck.

Sure, I think it would be mostly pointless.



#12 Brad Harrington

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 08:44 AM

From Rulebook on Page 18:

At the beginning of the combat phase, the players deal 1 Shadow card to each engaged enemy.

This occurs before you choose an enemies attack to resolve. The only time the shadow card gets flipped face up is during step 3 of Resolving Enemy Attacks, so if the enemy cannot attack (Forest Snare or Feint) it will never get turned face up and resolve.

From the Rulebook on page 20:

Shadow cards remain on the enemy to which they were dealt throughout the combat phase. If that enemy leaves play, discard its shadow card from play. At the end of the combat phase, discard all shadow cards that were dealt this round.

Nothing specific here about face-up or face-down. If there is a shadow card on the table at the end of the combat phase it gets discarded.



#13 Casamyr

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 09:53 AM

With the ruling At the start of the combat phase, players deal 1 shadow card to each engaged enemy is the key. This will be a tough one  to interpret until an offical errata comes out. Since a critter is engaged with a hero, by the letter of the rules it must be dealt a card.

However the rules also state that text on cards trumps any written rules in the book. By that rationale I'd argue that enemies with Snare or Feint on them do not get shadow cards since they are no longer in the combat



#14 Acererak

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 11:17 AM

Casamyr said:

 

With the ruling At the start of the combat phase, players deal 1 shadow card to each engaged enemy is the key. This will be a tough one  to interpret until an offical errata comes out. Since a critter is engaged with a hero, by the letter of the rules it must be dealt a card.

However the rules also state that text on cards trumps any written rules in the book. By that rationale I'd argue that enemies with Snare or Feint on them do not get shadow cards since they are no longer in the combat

 

 

It doesn´t say they are not in the combat. It says they cannot attack. There is a big difference.

Mainly the one that let YOU attack them. ;-)



#15 Iron-on Ghost

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 01:11 PM

PWBrian said:

monkeylite said:

 

CrowOfPyke said:

 

I disagree.  Drawing an Encounter card for its Shadow Effect is part of "Resolving Enemy Attacks".  But the enemy cannot attack thanks to Forest Snare.  Therefore there is no "Resolving Enemy Attacks", which means no Encounter card is drawn for its Shadow Effect.

 

 

'Deal 1 shadow card to each enemy' (p.31) is the very first thing of the combat phase before any talk of resolving enemy attacks.

 

 

Yes, but resolving the shadow card is part of the attack.  So, it seems like it would either be pointless to attach a shadow card, or it would be a means of removing cards from the encounter deck.

well you can't play event cards until you have initiated the first step of the attack anyway. So no matter what that card is being dealt.

"Players may play event cards and take
actions at the end of each step." (Pg. 18 of the LotR LCG Rulebook)

See link for further discussion on this issue because it is not card specific it is more of a question on general rules obscurity.

www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp



#16 faith_star83

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 01:40 PM

I think Brad Harrington makes a good call here! Upon reading everything again I'd also say the correct way to proceed is to:

1. Deal Shadow card

2. Skip Attack steps

3. Attack enemies

4. Discard all Shadow cards

Timing for Feint are a different issue, but since Forest Snare is an attachment it can only be played in the Planning Phase anyway.






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