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[Rules Q.] A Chosen Path


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#1 monkeylite

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 02:14 AM

We came to Don't Leave the Path with Ungoliant's Spawn already engaged and a couple of hit points left. The Quest condition is 'players must find and defeat Ungoliant's Spawn to win this game.' So, we ruled that she was 'found' and we won the game easily next round.

It was very fortunate, as presumably, had we defeated US the round before, we would have had to get her from the deck and fight her all over again. I'm wondering if this is the correct interpretation.



#2 ClydeCloggie

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 02:36 AM

One for the first FAQ, I feel. But I would say that indeed once you enter a new stage, things that have happened before become irrelevant and don't count towards fulfilling the quest, i.e., you would have to face the Spawn all over again if you'd defeated her prior to commencing this stage of the quest.

Tactically, this means a bit of Spawn shepherding is called for if you encounter her before you get to stage 3. Weaken her and nullify her threat, but don't kill her before you enter the final stage. 



#3 monkeylite

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 03:32 AM

Yeah, we effectively did do some shepherding, although not intentionally. But, the card says we must find her, and she was already on the board, so we didn't 'find' her during that stage of the quest.

The problem I have with interpreting this as we needing to (kill her and) find her again is that the quest card gives the opportunity to look through the deck and find her card. But of course, if she's on board, then we can't do that either. So having her on board when the quest changes is the worst possible (and largely unmittigatable) situation.



#4 Titan

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 04:58 AM

I've always thought that it would help to be a lawyer to understand some of the interactions in card games. I can see the sense in considering her found if she's already out there, but  prior experience with other games has shown that some cards are interpreted sooooooo literally. I would not be surprised if the condition was fulfilled only by "finding" her then and there. Seems like, early on, this game has a few loose ends to tie. Normal, I suppose. I can only imagine that I might have a few issues of my own when I my own one arrives. Can't wait, though.



#5 rings

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 05:05 AM

Maybe it would just 'reset' her as well - she is discarded due to uniqueness rules and then 'found' effectively taking all damage/attachments off her?

A weird case...but one that will come up fairly often I assume.


Oh, King eh? Very nice...

#6 ClydeCloggie

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 05:16 AM

rings said:

Maybe it would just 'reset' her as well - she is discarded due to uniqueness rules and then 'found' effectively taking all damage/attachments off her?

A weird case...but one that will come up fairly often I assume.

IIRC, Spawn isn't unique



#7 pumpkin

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 06:49 AM

I reckon you played it right. The word "find" doesnt have a specific meaning i reckon, unlike engage for instance.

I think the intention of the card is to force you to defeat U-Spawn at least once, whereas by taking Beorn's path you can complete the quest without having to face her/it.



#8 DrNate

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 09:34 AM

monkeylite said:

We came to Don't Leave the Path with Ungoliant's Spawn already engaged and a couple of hit points left. The Quest condition is 'players must find and defeat Ungoliant's Spawn to win this game.' So, we ruled that she was 'found' and we won the game easily next round.

That's some lucky timing on your part. I would definitely rule the same if I was in that situation. "We found her. She's over here TRYING TO EAT US!"



#9 faith_star83

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 02:25 PM

Some card-games require a very literal interpretation of the cards, but I think in the lotr lcg this is not true yet. It is not (yet) as keyword driven as other games and thus I sometimes quite freely interprete the cards in the way it makes most sense and it is most fun for me as a player.

So the way I "read" my quest card is the following:

The players must defeat Ungoliants spawn to win the game, if they did not already do so. If US is not on the board search your encounter deck and put it in the staging area.

I think it doesn't make sense to not be able to complete the game because I already defeated US. An alternative way to play this:

find = looking in the encounter deck and discard pile. Since Ungolianth could spawn more than 1 creature we might have to defeat two of those beasts...tough choice though.



#10 pwvogt

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 03:54 PM

 I like your alternative ruling of searching both the encounter draw and discard decks. It'll be the way I go until we see otherwise in the FAQ.



#11 pumpkin

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 07:16 PM

pwvogt said:

 I like your alternative ruling of searching both the encounter draw and discard decks. It'll be the way I go until we see otherwise in the FAQ.

Thats not an alternate ruling; that's what the card says.

Basically, if ungoliant's spawn isn't already in play, you search through the deck/discard pile until you find it  and place it in the staging area (although by the rules you could choose to add a different spider to the staging area instead if you wanted to delay facing U-spawn but I'm not sure how sensible a tactic that is..).

The OPs original query was whether they completed the find aspect of the rule because U-spawn was already on the board, not because it was in a discard pile and therefore couldn't be found.

 

 



#12 spirit

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 08:33 PM

Really? Because I didn't read it that you had to go through the discard pile. I read it simply that she has to be defeated at least once. If that's happened then great. Otherwise go through the draw deck to find and put US into play. 



#13 jhaelen

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 09:21 PM

spirit said:

Really? Because I didn't read it that you had to go through the discard pile. I read it simply that she has to be defeated at least once. If that's happened then great. Otherwise go through the draw deck to find and put US into play. 

It says to pick a spider from the draw deck or the discard pile. In my game the latter mattered because I had previously drawn the Spawn as a Shadow card!

I don't think it's required to defeat the Spawn twice.I think, you meet the condition even if you've defeated the Spawn before getting to stage three of the adventure.

 



#14 Infyra

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 09:35 PM

I think the confusion here is between the setup text on the card and the actual text that reveals how to complete this stage.

The setup tells us to find a spider, the other text tells us we have to find and defeat US.

It would make sense to find US as the spider you are searching since you have to defeat her, and I think the "Find and defeat US" text is mainly flavorish, meaning you only have to defeat a US in play.

Also I think it keeps all wounds it has if it was already in play, making for an easier victory. Things like these might be needed to one day finish the Nightmare campaign.

 



#15 pumpkin

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 10:00 PM

jhaelen said:

spirit said:

 

Really? Because I didn't read it that you had to go through the discard pile. I read it simply that she has to be defeated at least once. If that's happened then great. Otherwise go through the draw deck to find and put US into play. 

 

It says to pick a spider from the draw deck or the discard pile. In my game the latter mattered because I had previously drawn the Spawn as a Shadow card!

 

I don't think it's required to defeat the Spawn twice.I think, you meet the condition even if you've defeated the Spawn before getting to stage three of the adventure.

 

ah, i hadn't considered it like that and understand what you mean but still not sure its right. if it counts for defeating her before stage 3 then if you get that path and you've already defeated her its an immediate win, as that stage requires no quest points.

I get the impression that Beorn's path is normally the preferable of the two random options as this in theory gives you the option of avoiding U-spawn in the final stages. If a previous defeat of U-spawn counts for the other random option, this would make Beorn's path the "bad" draw", which thematically doesn't seem right.

Will wait for the FAQ though, I guess

 

 



#16 PWBrian

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 10:22 AM

 I would love to see a FAQ on this adventure.  When we reached the end in our first game, we had already defeated Ungoliant's Spawn, and since we were pulling other spiders out of the discard we weren't sure how this particular spider was supposed to appear.  With Gandalf and a well-oiled Gimli, the fight wasn't too hard, but it's still up in the air at our house whether we should have just declared victory, drawn the card straight from the discard, or continued playing until it appeared naturally.



#17 Toqtamish

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 11:10 AM

Here is the official answer which I posted in another thread too.

 

The "must find and defeat" condition begins when the "Don't Leave the Path" card takes effect. If the Spawn is in play at that time, the "find" aspect is immediately satisfied, they simply have to defeat it. A previous defeat, though, will not satisfy the "defeat" aspect of the card.

Nate French



#18 Iron-on Ghost

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 04:20 AM

Simple explanation (in the case you were interested to know ruling nerd litigation): The card has two requirements. 1. Ungloliant's Spawn existed since the card has been in effect. 2. Ungoliant's Spawn has been defeated since the card has been in effect.

You win the game if both are satisfied.

Card's not in play don't usually keep memory of games stats until it has been in effect. (unless otherwise stated)






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