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Rules Question - Sneak Attack + Beorn


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#1 Bohemond

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 11:40 AM

It's a powerful combo, not quite as versatile as SA + Gandalf, but it might be better in combat if you have card support.  However, the rules interactions make my head hirt.  Here is the relevant card info

Beorn - Action: Beorn gains +5 ATK until the end of the phase. At the end of the phase in which you trigger this effect, shuffle Beorn back into your deck. (Limit once per round.)

Sneak Attack - Action: Put 1 ally card into play from your hand. At the end of the phase, if that ally is still in play, return it to your hand.

So, Beorn sneaks up on a Hill Troll, flies into a rage and cold-***** the dumb bastard.  What happens at the end of the combat phase?



#2 The_Big_Show

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 11:45 AM

In a game tonight we had this issue come up and we decided that the player chooses the order, so you can bounce him back to your hand. 



#3 Acererak

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 12:17 PM

As written, I think Beorn text overides Sneak Attack, since you start using the ability after Sneak Attack. The last sentence in Sneak Attack card (using the word "if that Ally is still in play") supports this reasoning.

 

So Beorn would be going back to your deck.

 



#4 Apophenia

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 12:40 PM

Acererak said:

As written, I think Beorn text overides Sneak Attack, since you start using the ability after Sneak Attack. The last sentence in Sneak Attack card (using the word "if that Ally is still in play") supports this reasoning.

 

So Beorn would be going back to your deck.

Wouldn't that also imply that if you use Beorn's ability and he dies before the end of the phase that he would still be shuffled back into the deck? (Assuming Beorn's text trumps Sneak Attack)



#5 CrowOfPyke

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 12:43 PM

Well, you would want to bring the ally Beorn in during Phase 6: Combat for obvious reasons.  You could do so at end of Step 1'Choose An Enemy' for "Resolving Enemy Attacks" which is your first opportunity to play Event cards during Phase 6.  Beorn would then be available for use for the rest of Phase 6.

 

There is no "End Of Phase" steps anywhere in the rulebook, so it appears that all "End Of Phase" items occur at the same time, which indeed allow Beorn to go back into the deck rather than be discarded, or you could just bounce him to your hand - your choice.  I wouldn't wager this will stick around forever though... I can see FFG defining "End Of Phase" more officially later.

 

Also, when you can play Event cards during each Phase, and even Phase 6: Combat, is defined a little differently in the rules section for that Phase versus the little chart at the end of the rulebook on when player actions happen....  So... yeah.  :)

 

 

 

 

 



#6 CrowOfPyke

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 12:51 PM

Apophenia said:

Acererak said:

 

As written, I think Beorn text overides Sneak Attack, since you start using the ability after Sneak Attack. The last sentence in Sneak Attack card (using the word "if that Ally is still in play") supports this reasoning.

 

So Beorn would be going back to your deck.

 

 

Wouldn't that also imply that if you use Beorn's ability and he dies before the end of the phase that he would still be shuffled back into the deck? (Assuming Beorn's text trumps Sneak Attack)

No.  Page 20 of rulebook:  "Any time one of these cards has 0 hit points, it is immediately defeated. Defeated characters are placed in their owner’s discard pile, and defeated enemies are placed in the encounter discard pile."

The card is no longer in play by the time End Of Phase rolls around and none of its abilities would apply, so no, Beorn would not go to your hand or shuffle into your deck.



#7 Apophenia

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 01:06 PM

CrowOfPyke said:

No.  Page 20 of rulebook:  "Any time one of these cards has 0 hit points, it is immediately defeated. Defeated characters are placed in their owner’s discard pile, and defeated enemies are placed in the encounter discard pile."

The card is no longer in play by the time End Of Phase rolls around and none of its abilities would apply, so no, Beorn would not go to your hand or shuffle into your deck.

My comment was in relation to how the Sneak Attack / Beorn combo was being interpreted. I was under the impression that Acererak was claiming that Beorn would get shuffled into the deck because it would still trigger even if Beorn was in your hand. (Rereading it I believe Acererak was actually saying that you shuffle Beorn into the deck because you used his ability after you used Sneak Attack) If that part of Beorn text would still apply when Beorn was in an out of play state like your hand then it should equally apply to your discard pile. 

However I do agree with you that Beorn should go in the discard if he uses his ability and then is killed. I also agree with you that since Beorn and Sneak Attack both trigger at the same time that the First Player should decide the order.

Sorry if there was any confusion about what I did/am saying.



#8 Acererak

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 01:26 PM

Apophenia said:

(Rereading it I believe Acererak was actually saying that you shuffle Beorn into the deck because you used his ability after you used Sneak Attack)

 

Yes, that was exactly what I meant to say. Sorry if it was not stated clearly enough.

 

I do agree that Beorn goes to discard if he dies but precisely for the same reason i think he goes to deck and not to hand if his ability is used after Sneak Attack : being defeated interrupts the effect on Beorns card, and gets applied before the other effect can be completed. Same thing with Beorn ability after coming into play through Sneak Attack.

 

Otherwise, Sneak Attack (a 1 resource cost event) is being used with much stronger effects than intended imo (same with Gandalf combo).

 

Official clarification will be welcomed.






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