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#1 Void_onion213

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 07:39 AM

From what i have read so far on this new rpg experience, it looks to me like this is the kind of setting a power gamer would enjoy. First is the fact that you are playing on the side of chaos and thus working against every one else to gain the favor of the gods. Second, with the additon of the ability to play as chaos marines and possible rise to warlords  further justifies the tendency to try and create a no bounderies overpowered character just becuse they can. Black Crusade appears to be the polar opposite of playing as an agent of the imperium. Instead of party cooperation, it seams to openly promote more of a munchkin play style. This is a simple observation. please correct me if i have it wrong,lol.



#2 Cifer

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 08:05 AM

 Well... what shall I say...?

 

From what i have read so far on the Dark Heresy rpg experience, it looks to me like this is the kind of setting a power gamer would enjoy. First is the fact that you are playing on the side of the Inquisition and thus prepare to work against every one else in case they go rogue. Second, with the additon of the ability to play as acolytes and possible rise to Inquisitors  further justifies the tendency to try and create a no bounderies overpowered character just becuse they can. Dark Heresy appears to be the polar opposite of playing as a classical band of do-gooders that will stay together in good and bad times. Instead of party cooperation, it seams to openly promote more of a munchkin play style. This is a simple observation. please correct me if i have it wrong,lol.

 

I don't think there is such a thing as a "munchkin" RPG (well, there actually is, but it's a derivate of the cardgame).

First off, the motivation to become better at what they do is intrinsic to most rpg characters - it's called self-preservation: When you make your living swinging your sword at orks, you try to become better at swinging than the orks are. Heck, when you make a living repairing indoor plumbing, you try to be better than your competitors because that's a good way of ensuring you stay in business. Damn those munchkin plumbers!

Secondly, intra-party conflict. I strongly suspect there'll be a chapter in the GM section about this, because it's a topic an "evil" rpg has to cover and FFG has generally been providing some help with party dynamics (see Squad Leaders in Deathwatch and Inquisitors' decision-making in Ascension). Suffice to say, there are multiple ways to handle it, either by constraining the characters ingame (they all serve the same daemonic patron and it doesn't tolerate infighting), reaching a consensus outgame or just letting it happen.

Finally, though, I don't think there's that much motivation to engage in intra-party conflict - there's a whole Imperium of Man just outside the Vortex and it won't hesitate to hunt you down, tear you to little pieces and burn the remains if you don't cover each others' arses.



#3 Void_onion213

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 08:18 AM

Thanks for the reply, normally most games in the series at least try to promote party cooperation. power gamers can appear in any system. It's just that on first glance, Black Crusade seems to be built for them. now you can stucture them like in RT or DH, but more than likely you won't find many players in that direction. you will have player that want to each have their own gods and ambitions that may play against everyone else. not only are you trying to gain favor but to exert dominace over everyone else before the launch of a crusade. I'm not sure if this is a game for casual gamers. it looks fun, just don't trust your parties actions, lol



#4 Lynata

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 09:35 AM

"Evil" doesn't necessarily mean backstabbing. Sure, partymembers may turn upon each other if the players really want that to happen - but this is just as likely to happen in every other game. Take Dark Heresy, for example, with its friction between members of the Ministorum, the Mechanicus and the always popular psyker/witch in their midst.

If Chaos wouldn't be able to cooperate, the Imperium would not have that much of a problem putting it down or defending against them. Sure, the cooperation may be forced (the strong dominate the weak) or may be just an alliance of convenience, but in the end, everything in the setting does suggest that the followers of Chaos have no problem with establishing a hierarchy - as long as their leader proves worthy.

I believe that the notion that evil characters would automatically mean infighting amongst the group (of the un-fun kind) simply stems from a lack of experience with such games. Yet this is not a new idea by a long shot, and other settings/franchises have shown that it's perfectly doable. Here's a snippet from a Drow sourcebook:

"Evil societies and groups exist for the same reason good people come together: mutual protection, division of duties, companionship, and so on. These are concepts that hold sway over thieves' guilds, pirate crews, and orc tribes, so there's no reason why your players' characters shouldn't be able to abide by them."

Ultimately, the very same idea has already been explored with WHFRP's Tome of Corruption, too. And the player characters in the existing 40k RPG games aren't exactly champions of virtue either.

 

Also, what has playing evil characters to do with powergaming? Aren't game mechanics and the campaign plot two entirely different things?


current 40k RPG character: Captain Elias, Celestial Lions Tactical Marine   
previous characters: Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader frigate Artemisia)

#5 Dulahan

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 10:02 AM

I recall the same things said about Deathwatch when it was announced.  So... yeah.  Almost the exact rant even.

 

I'd say wait and see before making such broad statements.



#6 Lynata

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 11:57 AM

Well, Deathwatch has those mechanics. But Black Crusade will cover a wider array of characters, so I would assume that it's also somewhat more "tame" - though it is still a bit too early to speculate as it may turn out either way. Given that we are talking about Chaos, there will likely be some pretty impressive warp magic and witchery, but we already have that in DH and RT as well. It all comes down to the scale, and that is entirely in the hands of the designers - and also subject to character advancement.

Just because your character may some day develop into a Chaos Sorceror who, with the help of an hour-long ritual and a hundred sacrifices can turn an entire city into a demon-infested battleground, it doesn't mean that the characters will start out that way. And once the characters have finally gotten to that point, there's also nothing against the players pulling off that sort of stuff by reaping the rewards for the work they've put into the campaign(s), as long as it fits to the roles they have assumed and the influence/power they have accumulated.

But as Dulahan said: let's wait and see!


current 40k RPG character: Captain Elias, Celestial Lions Tactical Marine   
previous characters: Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader frigate Artemisia)

#7 deinol

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 05:33 PM

 Power Gaming != Party Conflict

Creating powerful characters is possible in any system. As you long with you play with people you enjoy gaming with, it should be just fine.



#8 Don Raccoon

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 09:42 PM

Read the novel Soul Hunter, from the Black Library.

It follows some of the Night Lords, marines who sided with Chaos during the Heresy. While yes there is the backstabbing and politics expected of being a renegade legion, the book's main character is a true and loyal marine, who just feels the Imperium is wrong.

Not all Chaos followers are worshippers and not all worshippers are raving maniacs out to become tentacled chosen of their gods.

Some followers are out for their own gain, using the powers of Chaos, thinking themselves the cunning ones who can walk away at any time. Plenty of oppurtunities for group play, whether you're a Heretic or Chaos Marine.

You just have to look are religion in the real world to see the differences between followers of their chosen god(s). Some are fanatics, some are just normal people who believe their way is right.

I for one am looking forward to Black Crusade, to bring in the chance to play the opposite side of the coin, those deemed evil and bad, to see just how evil they are. Or is it just that they're misunderstood?



#9 jesusjohn

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 01:52 AM

A lot of people said the same about Vampire, but it came down to individual groups and players. Hell i played Exalted and when you have the power to kick the head off a dragon you kind of get on with the roleplaying and the butt kicking becomes baclground to make you look cool.



#10 Chastity

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 02:23 AM

Black Crusade does seem like "Power" is going to be a major theme, but that doesn't mean that it's "a power gamer's delight" any more than any other game with relatively concrete mechanics. It's like arguing that Monopoly is a power-gamer's delight because it's all about acquiring wealth and influence.

Power gaming isn't about your character trying to acquire power through in-character risks and compromises (which is, in fact, a central theme of Black Crusade) it's about you trying to acquire meta-game power over other players by cheesing the rule system.



#11 Lynata

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 06:27 AM

Well said. Personally, I think that Black Crusade could turn out like a mixture of the previous three games (with the "power" component coming from RT once the player characters managed to gather a warband), just on the other side.


current 40k RPG character: Captain Elias, Celestial Lions Tactical Marine   
previous characters: Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader frigate Artemisia)

#12 Siranui

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 10:49 PM

 Power gaming isn't about game concept. It's impossible to tell if this is a 'power gamers delight' until we see the full system (and if it's broken: Because that's what delights power gamers).



#13 Ugolino

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 09:37 AM

Munchkin? Ha!

Throw mutations, loyalists, and overly ambitious underlings at them.



#14 axabrax

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 04:15 AM

What makes you so sure that the players are even going to start out as Marines?  It's not so clear to me what the starting power level is going ot be. Personally, I hope that it's a mirror image of Deathwatch and the plaers do start out at least marine level, but how do we know the syetem doesn't start you out at 0xp or something very low rather than the 10000xp or so being a marine implies?



#15 Cifer

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 06:29 AM

 From what little we know about the playtesting groups, it sounds like marines will be among the archetypes.



#16 Alpharius Omegon

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 02:52 PM

This will turn out to be a "power gamer's delight" only if the GM is a moron and doesn't tailor the opposition to the player group's level.  If you don't want the players to get away with anything easily, the solution is simple: don't make it easy.

 



#17 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 09:34 PM

Alpharius Omegon said:

This will turn out to be a "power gamer's delight" only if the GM is a moron and doesn't tailor the opposition to the player group's level.

Blech... I've long since moved away from tailoring combats to PC ability. If the group decided to attack an orphanage, then they'll find children and the staff who take care of and teach them (of course, in 40k, that may actually be a tougher fight than it might initially sound); if they try to attack an Arbites Precinct-Fortress, they'll encounter servitor-slaved defensive systems and well-equipped, well-trained Arbitrators; if they try to venture into the impossible brass-and-bone fortress of a Daemon Prince of Khorne, then they'll encounter that Daemon Prince and his servants.

The children aren't suddenly levelled up or the daemon prince depowered to fit the player characters' abilities, and I've long found that doing so actually robs players of a sense of accomplishment if all their enemies level up to match them to the point that they're still fighting the same foes over and over again.


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#18 Cifer

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 11:40 PM

 If the group decided to attack an orphanage, then they'll find children and the staff who take care of and teach them (of course, in 40k, that may actually be a tougher fight than it might initially sound)

Well, choose the wrong orphanage and you might have to deal with Commissars, Sororitas, Arbitrators and Stormtroopers - though probably only a few of them.



#19 MILLANDSON

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 11:15 AM

Cifer said:

 If the group decided to attack an orphanage, then they'll find children and the staff who take care of and teach them (of course, in 40k, that may actually be a tougher fight than it might initially sound)

Well, choose the wrong orphanage and you might have to deal with Commissars, Sororitas, Arbitrators and Stormtroopers - though probably only a few of them.

Hell, chose the wrong orphanage on the wrong planet, and you might end up against Commissars, Sororitas, Arbitrators and Stormtroopers... who are being led by Commissar Ciaphas Cain... which then makes you more boned


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#20 schoon

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 03:54 PM

I'm not sure I see the game that way from what FFG has revealed thus far.

It seems that the game will cover a range of power levels, from Cultists to Chaos Space Marines.

It seems to me that it's a sort of 40KRP v1.5 that unifies (or at least connects) the various games thus far.






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