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Ordo Malleus


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#1 Frostfire

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Posted 07 March 2011 - 05:20 AM

Yep.  That Ordo Malleus

 

Don't know if someone already speculated on this, but I'm thinking that Grey Knights would be a great edition to Black Crusade.  So much so, that rules for them might be in there.  I mean, who better as an enemy of chaos? Right? 

I know the book is dedicated to chaos. But meh, who knows.  Could pull a fast one on us.

Discuss amongst yourselves.



#2 Unusualsuspect

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Posted 07 March 2011 - 05:38 AM

 Aren't they already going to be heavily featured in the new Daemonhunter book in the Dark Heresy line?

 

FFG has been fairly good at not reprinting much material when it comes to enemies... Though I wouldn't be surprised to see at least a few entries, as this IS supposed to be a stand-alone game...



#3 Frostfire

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Posted 07 March 2011 - 06:08 AM

I meant more or less becoming one.  A conversion for DW rules involving space marines. 



#4 Graver

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Posted 07 March 2011 - 06:34 AM

Frostfire said:

 

I meant more or less becoming one.  A conversion for DW rules involving space marines. 

 

 

Less likely in BC, more likely in DH Daemonhunter... though hopefully without them being quite as OT as the DW marines ;-)



#5 Frostfire

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Posted 07 March 2011 - 02:33 PM

...but Grey Knights ARE space marines.....



#6 Lynata

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Posted 07 March 2011 - 03:09 PM

Frostfire said:

...but Grey Knights ARE space marines.....

They don't have to be as OP as the ones from DW, though. Deathwatch is a game that seems to focus on one thing and one thing only: taking a squad of ~5 Marines and creating the most epic fight ever using "Movie Marine"-style rules. Take note that both their armour as well as their weapons have been "buffed" from previous appearances.

Given that the Malleus book will likely try to have Grey Knights work alongside Inquisitors and senior Throne Agents, it could well be that their stats will be somewhat more on the realistic rather than the epic end of the spectrum.

I fully expect them to still "kick ass", though, and likely not differ too much from DW - but the gap (hopefully) won't be as big.


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#7 Unusualsuspect

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Posted 07 March 2011 - 06:59 PM

I'm fairly certain my fluff knowledge isn't quite as in-depth as yours, Lynata, and not to take away from your (in my opinion valid) points in the other thread, but my understanding of Grey Knights were that they were nearly as far above  "line" Space Marines (everyone but a HQ or a Special character in tabletop, basically) as "line" Space Marines are above the more elite humans.

 

I mean, didn't a group of them take on Angron himself, a frickin' Daemon-Primarch, and send him back to the warp, tail between legs?



#8 Dulahan

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Posted 07 March 2011 - 07:37 PM

By a group, I'm pretty sure it was... well, a lot.  Possibly in the 100+ range.  And they're anti-demon thing is as much special equipment and even more specialized training as anything.  Man for man against other Marines?  I doubt they're much different.

 

That said, I disagree with Lynata about the Deathwatch ones being made for 'movie marines' - they're decent marines.  I'd even go so far as to say VERY raw by DW standards.  A bit better than the average newbie fresh up from Scout, possibly on level with Tac Marine, but not "Movie Marines" anymore than any Marine should be.  "Movie" and "Fiction" marines ARE what we're playing, not mooks.  So I hope the Hunters get some other boosts.  As for why I say I disagree about them being Movie level, look how many people STILL think the ones in Deathwatch aren't even close to powerful enough as marines.  (Myself?  I believe they emulate the fiction quite well)



#9 Sebashaw

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Posted 07 March 2011 - 08:11 PM

I agree with Lynata.



#10 Lightbringer

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Posted 07 March 2011 - 11:08 PM

For me what's interesting is how Black Crusade will interact with the Dark Heresy Daemonhunter book. There's the risk of some overlap there. Personally, I imagine Daemonhunter will focus more on the Ordo Malleus and the Grey Knights rather than their opponents, but we shall see.

And I would regard the Grey Knights as being on a par with Deathwatch marines in terms of abilities, but equipped with a far more specialist skill set and equipment loadout.

Although there is variety amongst daemonkind, they are ultimately entities which obey the same set of unnatural rules, and which can be banished in the same way. Xenos on the other hand vary tremendously, so it's harder for Deathwatch marines to specialise to the degree one (probably) sees among the Grey Knights.  

EDIT: In other words, I'm agreeing with Dulahan about the Grey Knights. Sorry, Dulahan, skipped through your post without reading it properly!



#11 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 03:20 AM

Grey Knights are like the Superman version of space marines. They are all psykers and almost all their wargear is relic grade. 

I believe the general assumption is that instead of deploying 1,000 guardsman, you would instead deploy 20 Marines, or 5 Deathwatch marines, or 1 Grey Knight.



#12 Lynata

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 03:58 AM

Unusualsuspect said:

I'm fairly certain my fluff knowledge isn't quite as in-depth as yours, Lynata, and not to take away from your (in my opinion valid) points in the other thread, but my understanding of Grey Knights were that they were nearly as far above "line" Space Marines (everyone but a HQ or a Special character in tabletop, basically) as "line" Space Marines are above the more elite humans.

There's definitively some truth to that, but given that we're likely talking Ascension level here I think it could well be that high-ranking DH characters can hold up to "rank and file" Grey Knights in the same way as a HQ Inquisitor can accompany a bunch of GKs on the Tabletop (or in some novels). I mean, Ordo Malleus Inquisitors can even wear Terminator Armour ...

Basically providing rules for 1-4 Ranks of Grey Knights that are somewhat comparable to experienced Ascension characters with appropriate equipment. The biggest difference from DW would be that their weapons are actually balanced to work by the same damage scale just like they do in the fluff and on the TT. At least that'd be my idea on how to tackle this.

Providing fewer Advancement Schemes for the GKs would also allow them to fit in easier in terms of page count, in addition to balancing (limiting) them to the range of other characters.

 

Lightbringer said:

For me what's interesting is how Black Crusade will interact with the Dark Heresy Daemonhunter book. There's the risk of some overlap there.

I'm interested to see this interaction as well, but also because both books will be new in that they actively try to have "normal" people work alongside Marines instead of creating different "power levels" as it happened with DH/RT <-> DW.

 

I believe the general assumption is that instead of deploying 1,000 guardsman, you would instead deploy 20 Marines, or 5 Deathwatch marines, or 1 Grey Knight.

Who still is not invincible, mind you. 1.000 Guardsmen likely bring a lot of heavy weapons and armoured vehicles along. It's not as if they'd just line up with a bunch of lasguns and wait to get slaughtered. But even then we've heard of enough cases where lasgun shots have felled a Marine (despite it not being possible in DW unless you use Horde rules).


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#13 Faydra

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 06:35 AM

Lynata said:

There's definitively some truth to that, but given that we're likely talking Ascension level here I think it could well be that high-ranking DH characters can hold up to "rank and file" Grey Knights in the same way as a HQ Inquisitor can accompany a bunch of GKs on the Tabletop (or in some novels). I mean, Ordo Malleus Inquisitors can even wear Terminator Armour ...

Basically providing rules for 1-4 Ranks of Grey Knights that are somewhat comparable to experienced Ascension characters with appropriate equipment. The biggest difference from DW would be that their weapons are actually balanced to work by the same damage scale just like they do in the fluff and on the TT. At least that'd be my idea on how to tackle this.

Providing fewer Advancement Schemes for the GKs would also allow them to fit in easier in terms of page count, in addition to balancing (limiting) them to the range of other characters.

>Grey Knights less powerful than Deathwatch Marines

No. No, that is not how Grey Knights work, and given how FFG is typically pretty good at sticking to the fluff in terms of power level,  that is not how the game should work. Grey Knights are the best of the best of the best, undergoing training and hypno-doctrination above and beyond (by several orders of magnitude) that of regular marines. Every single one of them is a psyker, and not a single one has ever fallen to Chaos. They are going to be, if anything, MORE powerful than DW Marines, with equipment designed to reflect that.



#14 Replicant253

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 06:44 AM

Just to concur that on the scale of marine 'hardness' Grey Knights only come 2nd to Adeptus Custodes, that has certainly how i have seen then porttayed in the fluff to date.  The new GK codex for TT even has some silly story about a lone, albeit HQ, Grey Knight wandering the warp laying the smack down on demi-gods and daemons for all eternity.



#15 Faydra

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 06:46 AM

Replicant253 said:

 

Just to concur that on the scale of marine 'hardness' Grey Knights only come 2nd to Adeptus Custodes, that has certainly how i have seen then porttayed in the fluff to date.  The new GK codex for TT even has some silly story about a lone, albeit HQ, Grey Knight wandering the warp laying the smack down on demi-gods and daemons for all eternity.

 

 

I think that, generally speaking, the power level for non-chaos marine-esque figures goes like this:

Space Marine < Grey Knight < Adeptus Custode < Primarch < Emperor



#16 Lynata

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 07:37 AM

Faydra said:

No. No, that is not how Grey Knights work, and given how FFG is typically pretty good at sticking to the fluff in terms of power level,  that is not how the game should work. Grey Knights are the best of the best of the best, undergoing training and hypno-doctrination above and beyond (by several orders of magnitude) that of regular marines. Every single one of them is a psyker, and not a single one has ever fallen to Chaos. They are going to be, if anything, MORE powerful than DW Marines, with equipment designed to reflect that.

A misunderstanding. What I meant was that Deathwatch portrays its player characters as way over the top and with canon-breaking equipment gaps to DH or RT, which seems to suggest that it takes place on a different narrative scale (in terms of movies think "Saving Private Ryan" vs "300" - both fun to watch but notably different in portrayal) and you cannot directly compare characters or equipment from one game with another. Marine weapons and armour alone have received considerable buffs for the purpose of Deathwatch, not to mention special game mechanics that DH/RT characters do not have access to. It's simply "epic" rather than "realistic".

Marines would be weaker in DH/RT (in fact they are, as they have already been statted there once), and whilst DH Grey Knights would be stronger than DH Space Marines, they would still appear weaker than DW Space Marines - and thus allow grouping with high level non-Marine characters without appearing too much off-balance. Kind of like in the novels where you have the Astartes teaming up with someone else.

At least those are my thoughts and hopes on the subject.


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#17 deinol

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 08:20 AM

 @Lynata - I doubt they will make Grey Knights weaker than DW characters. While I would have liked marines in DW to have been a little less potent, that's not the direction FFG chose.  But in theory all 3 lines are in the same system/setting.

My guess is they will be on par, but have psychic squad mode powers. That's what would make since to me. But I haven't played TT since 2nd Edition, but that's what I remember them to be like (a whole squad counting as 1 psycher). I am interested in seeing how they integrate the material. The book should be a useful guide for anyone wanting to mix Deathwatch with Dark Heresy.



#18 Replicant253

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 09:31 AM

Lynata said:

Faydra said:

No. No, that is not how Grey Knights work, and given how FFG is typically pretty good at sticking to the fluff in terms of power level,  that is not how the game should work. Grey Knights are the best of the best of the best, undergoing training and hypno-doctrination above and beyond (by several orders of magnitude) that of regular marines. Every single one of them is a psyker, and not a single one has ever fallen to Chaos. They are going to be, if anything, MORE powerful than DW Marines, with equipment designed to reflect that.

A misunderstanding. What I meant was that Deathwatch portrays its player characters as way over the top and with canon-breaking equipment gaps to DH or RT, which seems to suggest that it takes place on a different narrative scale (in terms of movies think "Saving Private Ryan" vs "300" - both fun to watch but notably different in portrayal) and you cannot directly compare characters or equipment from one game with another. Marine weapons and armour alone have received considerable buffs for the purpose of Deathwatch, not to mention special game mechanics that DH/RT characters do not have access to. It's simply "epic" rather than "realistic".

Marines would be weaker in DH/RT (in fact they are, as they have already been statted there once), and whilst DH Grey Knights would be stronger than DH Space Marines, they would still appear weaker than DW Space Marines - and thus allow grouping with high level non-Marine characters without appearing too much off-balance. Kind of like in the novels where you have the Astartes teaming up with someone else.

At least those are my thoughts and hopes on the subject.

I can see where you are coming from.  If correct in your prediction this just confirms that they have got themselves in a little bit of a mess with the four core rulebook system.  I certainly see them as a whole rather than individual parts and i am already disspoianted when i see different stats for the same creatures from CA to DW (although it is sometimes explained away as different strain/genus).

Having all four core settings compatible is the only saving grace to this system they are currently working with and at the moment i think they are only achieving semi-compatability without a lot of work from a GM.

If Grey Knights are 'weaker' than DW marines that will slightly irritate me because it is clear that in the background they are in fact a step up in uberness.



#19 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 10:03 AM

Replicant253 said:

...i am already disspoianted when i see different stats for the same creatures from CA to DW (although it is sometimes explained away as different strain/genus).

If you are talking about Genestealers, yes, every time they have been published they have been slightly different and given a new strain name. I think this is the ideal way to handle Genestealers.



#20 Unusualsuspect

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Posted 08 March 2011 - 10:24 AM

 I also have no problem with some minor overlapping if it is necessary for the game to work as a standalone system - I actually wish they'd have an entry for the "basic" of most/all opponents (Eldar/Dark Eldar, Orks, Tau, Genestealer/Gaunts, SM/CSM) in EVERY core book so that GM's at least have some conception of what the game designers thought a good conversion of the basic stock enemy would be, which they could then tweak themselves to provide the more esoteric members of that enemy race, without having to own and crossreference every book in the FFG library.






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