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Genetor + The Flesh is Weak


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#1 Badlapje

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 09:34 AM

Quick Q: i'm playing a genetor atm which replaces rank 3 of the Explorator Path.  It allows you to take A Machine of the Flesh (max of three times).  However, as you progress as a "normal" Explorator afterwards you have missed the first level of "The Flesh is Weak".  Does it make sense that instead of The Flesh is Weak 2 on lvl 4 one can then take The Flesh is Weak 1 at that level?

I'm asking because one of the possible choices for A Machine of the Flesh is Regeneration, which seems to clash with the idea of The Flesh is Weak



#2 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 09:51 AM

Badlapje said:

Quick Q: i'm playing a genetor atm which replaces rank 3 of the Explorator Path.  It allows you to take A Machine of the Flesh (max of three times).  However, as you progress as a "normal" Explorator afterwards you have missed the first level of "The Flesh is Weak".  Does it make sense that instead of The Flesh is Weak 2 on lvl 4 one can then take The Flesh is Weak 1 at that level?

I'm asking because one of the possible choices for A Machine of the Flesh is Regeneration, which seems to clash with the idea of The Flesh is Weak

It is intentional that Genetor replaces the rank where you get the first level of The Flesh is Weak - the idea being that you lose access to that and get A Machine of Flesh instead. Genetors should not have access to The Flesh is Weak at all, in my opinion (and, indeed, in the first draft of the Genetor rules, I specifically excluded the option)..


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#3 Vanity Evolved

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 11:09 AM

Personally, I would allow this.

As long as you took it in the rank structure. If you wanted Flesh is Weak 4, well, gonna' have to replace Rank 7-8 with Genetor. Enjoy double prices on the very good talents, at best.



#4 MILLANDSON

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 04:07 PM

Given N0-1-H3r3 wrote the Genator alternate career and he says it was intended for you not to be able to take it, I would say no, you can't take it.


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#5 HappyDaze

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 02:43 PM

Simply take The Flesh Is Weak 1 as an Elite Advance (typically at double the original cost) and then proceed as normal just as with any specialty that replaces your normal advancement and omits needed skills or talents.


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#6 Badlapje

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 10:58 PM

N0-1_H3r3 said:

It is intentional that Genetor replaces the rank where you get the first level of The Flesh is Weak - the idea being that you lose access to that and get A Machine of Flesh instead. Genetors should not have access to The Flesh is Weak at all, in my opinion (and, indeed, in the first draft of the Genetor rules, I specifically excluded the option)..

 

That's the vibe i got from it.  Basically a trade-off between faster healing and not needing healing as much.  I'll apply it like that then, thx! :)  It does strike me as much more logical that you can regenerate your wounds when it's only flesh rather then half metal.

As the other answers point out though: it seems there is confusion on this point, might be something to clear up in the errata?

 

And maybe an added two questions to the original since the original writer is here to have his brain picked :

1. are the original options for a Machine of the Flesh limitative (as in playtested and sure not to upset the power balance to much), or just an example and can other mutations also be added? (i'd imagine Corpulent to be overpowered, though perhaps nice for an ascension career for RT characters)

2. do you have any thoughts on whether or not a Genetor should be allowed to also do this to other members of his/her crew?  The Companions of Vogel are actively proposing the idea to genetically augment humanity so it can better cope with the myriad of dangers that beset it.  So if a genetor realises a breakthrough such as Regeneration in himself ... why would he not propose this to his RT and his first officers (providing of course they are open to the idea of being augmented), or conversely: why would they not try to buy such an augmentation from the Genetor?



#7 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 08:48 AM

Badlapje said:

And maybe an added two questions to the original since the original writer is here to have his brain picked :

Having recently churned out large quantities of text for Black Crusade, my brain is hardly in the best state for picking... but I'll give it a shot.

Badlapje said:

1. are the original options for a Machine of the Flesh limitative (as in playtested and sure not to upset the power balance to much), or just an example and can other mutations also be added? (i'd imagine Corpulent to be overpowered, though perhaps nice for an ascension career for RT characters)

I picked those ones specifically, as I could see them being appropriate and reasonably equivalent choices. If you choose to allow any others, I'd suggest only as Elite Advances with different costs applied to more/less powerful ones.

Badlapje said:

2. do you have any thoughts on whether or not a Genetor should be allowed to also do this to other members of his/her crew?  The Companions of Vogel are actively proposing the idea to genetically augment humanity so it can better cope with the myriad of dangers that beset it.  So if a genetor realises a breakthrough such as Regeneration in himself ... why would he not propose this to his RT and his first officers (providing of course they are open to the idea of being augmented), or conversely: why would they not try to buy such an augmentation from the Genetor?

It's viable as an option, but obviously not something I had the scope to deal with. I would, just off the top of my head rather than with any major thought, make it an Elite Advance option, subject to successful Scholastic Lore (Chymistry), Chem-Use and/or Medicae Tests, all of which should be fairly difficult and come with unpleasant risks and side-effects (a Genetor will know his own body extremely well, and his augmentations are the result of long and careful study... other people are more... fragile). An example of this would be in the novel Legacy (part 2 of the Shira Calpurnia trilogy), where the Explorator in a Rogue Trader's flotilla attempts to alter one of the crew to make him appear (under technological scrutiny) to be the late Rogue Trader's heir... the lucky recipient of these experiments ends up an insane and cancerous mass of immobile flesh... and he was the most successful attempt.


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#8 Badlapje

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 10:21 PM

ouch, sounds like certain galactic forces would be happy to see me try 

It's a tad different i have to say from how i'd have imagined it.  I was thinking more along the lines of the process to become a gland warrior (something it seems to me any genetor would aspire to as well :D), with a need to have the requisite amount of toughness and the right talents such as True Grit and Die Hard.  But your way does sound like a lot more fun 



#9 HappyDaze

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 05:48 AM

There's also "Transgenic something" from the Radical's Handbook (DH) that allows the grafting of Traits and has rules for doing .  Typically for xenos traits, but it could likely be used to lift mutations to place them on a target.  You'd need Forbidden Lore (Mutants) instead of Forbidden Lore (Xenos) but it should otherwise work fine. The Genetor could now pass his 'mutations' on to others, or graft additional Traits to himself from interesting subjects.


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#10 Fortinbras

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 11:17 AM

MILLANDSON said:

 

Given N0-1-H3r3 wrote the Genator alternate career and he says it was intended for you not to be able to take it, I would say no, you can't take it.

 

 

You're giving a lot of power over your games to a freelance writer who's not an actual FFG representative. Weren't you telling me just last month in response to an official ruling by Sam (in re: Power on Ships) that he doesn't run mine?



#11 Bilateralrope

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 03:25 PM

MILLANDSON said:

Given N0-1-H3r3 wrote the Genator alternate career and he says it was intended for you not to be able to take it, I would say no, you can't take it.

 

The text that specifically excluded taking them both was in his draft. But someone removed that piece of text. Who removed it ?

 

Why did they remove it ?

If they removed it because they intended for them to be used together then we have run into one of the big problems with Rules As Intended: When people are working together, they often intend different things. When you have two different intents, which one is RAI ?



#12 Vanity Evolved

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 04:22 PM

 Also, not sure if it was removed from the draft in post-production, but you'll notice Machinator Array -is- allowed with Genetor. Mechanically, +4AP in addition to everything else, mechanically, is ridiculous, it makes sense to me to still allow it as an Elite Advance if you're worried 'it makes no logical sense'. If, by the rules, I can take something which fills me with so much mechanical enhancement that I -triple- my body weight and become a 9ft piston monster with drill-bits for hands... I'd assume the same logic extends to The Flesh is Weak.



#13 Badlapje

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Posted 05 March 2011 - 12:08 AM

HappyDaze said:

There's also "Transgenic something" from the Radical's Handbook (DH) that allows the grafting of Traits and has rules for doing .  Typically for xenos traits, but it could likely be used to lift mutations to place them on a target.  You'd need Forbidden Lore (Mutants) instead of Forbidden Lore (Xenos) but it should otherwise work fine. The Genetor could now pass his 'mutations' on to others, or graft additional Traits to himself from interesting subjects.

Ah, now that is interesting :)  Thx for pointing that out!  It imposes sufficient risk without making it impossible or so dangerous that it's completely unviable!

 

Vanity Evolved said:

Also, not sure if it was removed from the draft in post-production, but you'll notice Machinator Array -is- allowed with Genetor. Mechanically, +4AP in addition to everything else, mechanically, is ridiculous, it makes sense to me to still allow it as an Elite Advance if you're worried 'it makes no logical sense'. If, by the rules, I can take something which fills me with so much mechanical enhancement that I -triple- my body weight and become a 9ft piston monster with drill-bits for hands... I'd assume the same logic extends to The Flesh is Weak.


 

Machinator Array is still in there.  If i read it right it's more like an exoskeleton-like enhancemend of the already present Mechanicus Implants.  So while it is indeed a significant enhancement, it does not cover your flesh in metal or replace it entirely.  The Flesh is Weak on the other hand states that you have undergone significant bionic replacement to the point where you are far more machine than man.  The endpoint of that would be that you only preserve your brain as a "fleshy" part, and everything else is machine.  Two entirely different things in my opinion.  Don't know where you got the drillbits for hands from but that'd be the flesh is weak rather then machinator array.  

Personally i think adding the Flesh is Weak to the normal Genetor A Machine of the Flesh enhancements makes no sense, neither logically nor mechanically (ie: it'd be overpowered).  Adding a Machinator Array is neither overpowered nor a problem from a logical perspective as i see it.

 

 



#14 Vanity Evolved

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Posted 05 March 2011 - 03:22 PM

 The Machinator Array adds enough that it boosts your Strength and Toughness with pistons, internal drives and such-forth ontop of everything; but I guess we simply have to agree to disagree. This is the oddness in that an Exploator has three seperate ways of getting the same sort of thing (Flesh is Weak being changed from robotics, Machinator Array being further boosts to this, and -then- you can take alternative cybernetics to remove organs for mechanical bonuses...)

Also, see Dark Heresy's Secutor; the class which was the only way to get Machinator Array in DH, to my knowledge.

Oddly enough, a glance at Lexicanum mentions that while they are far more machine than huamn at the point of Machinator Array, it 'armours up their internal organs'. Which with the rules, means Techpriests are searching out replacement organs of their own replacements, outside their Explorator Implants...



#15 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 05 March 2011 - 10:02 PM

Vanity Evolved said:

 The Machinator Array adds enough that it boosts your Strength and Toughness with pistons, internal drives and such-forth ontop of everything; but I guess we simply have to agree to disagree.

Or, in the case of a Genetor, the organic equivalent - high-density muscle and bone, additional organs and so forth.

However, a point should be made here... a Genetor is still a Tech-Priest (indeed, Genetor is a ruling rank of the Mechanicus Heirarchy, alongside the ranks of Magos, Artisan and Logis), and still has all the normal implants that define a Priest of the Machine. They don't shun machinery... they just don't believe that the flesh is weak and in need of replacement (merely... improvement).

The Talent "The Flesh is Weak" is based around the concept of removing flesh and bone and organs and replacing them with steel and silicon - a common element of Mechanicus orthodoxy - which is hardly an ideal notion for a Genetor whose studies are based around the nature of the organic. The Machinator Array adds to the body, rather than replacing part of it - it isn't part of that traditional act of discarding flesh in favour of machinery, but rather represents the fusion of organic and mechanical working as one.


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#16 Badlapje

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Posted 06 March 2011 - 09:48 AM

Vanity Evolved said:

 The Machinator Array adds enough that it boosts your Strength and Toughness with pistons, internal drives and such-forth ontop of everything; but I guess we simply have to agree to disagree. This is the oddness in that an Exploator has three seperate ways of getting the same sort of thing (Flesh is Weak being changed from robotics, Machinator Array being further boosts to this, and -then- you can take alternative cybernetics to remove organs for mechanical bonuses...)

Also, see Dark Heresy's Secutor; the class which was the only way to get Machinator Array in DH, to my knowledge.

Oddly enough, a glance at Lexicanum mentions that while they are far more machine than huamn at the point of Machinator Array, it 'armours up their internal organs'. Which with the rules, means Techpriests are searching out replacement organs of their own replacements, outside their Explorator Implants...

 

Personally when it comes to 40k i'll never rule on the basis of an image i found somewhere.  Yes it may have been the case for that class there, but honestly i won't let my imagination be limited by that.  Yes that guy has pistons for hands, but why on earth would you assume my explorator would ever want that (he doesn't )  His career plan is not to become a good miner or to become the fiercest fighter in the cosmos.  It's to unlock the secrets of the flesh so that he can boulster humanity against it's many foes.  He'll add bionics if it can help in that cause but he won't replace the entire flesh with machine.  Again: for me that is the traditional path of "the flesh is weak".  

A genetor believes the body is an organic machine.  So yeah, he's got no problem adding an exoskeleton in such a way that it interfaces seamlessly with his body and that he doesn't have to remove it anymore.  Of course it'll add to his strength and toughness.  That's what exoskeletons do: they give you bigger strength and it's not that hard a leap to imagine that in the 40k verse the one a tech-priest gets is so well intertwined with his body that it'll also boost his toughness (steel along the bones, reinforcement of vital parts and such more).  

 

The basic point is this: a genetor is not your run of the mill techpriest.  Comparing a normal tech-priest with a genetor simply doesn't help to see how they'll augment themselves.  Normal techpriest consider the flesh to be weak, an abomination of how they'd like to be.  A profanity of the most holy of forms ... the machine.  Genetors consider the flesh to be an organic machine ... that right there is a gamechanger.  A major one.  Throw out the rules for tech-priests and enter the rules for genetors.  Yes there are similarities, but imo: genetors represent an entirely different school of thinking, divergent from the normal interpretation of the omnissiah and his will.



#17 Gwdaver

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 01:46 PM

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Badlapje said:

And maybe an added two questions to the original since the original writer is here to have his brain picked :

 

Having recently churned out large quantities of text for Black Crusade, my brain is hardly in the best state for picking… but I'll give it a shot.

Badlapje said:

1. are the original options for a Machine of the Flesh limitative (as in playtested and sure not to upset the power balance to much), or just an example and can other mutations also be added? (i'd imagine Corpulent to be overpowered, though perhaps nice for an ascension career for RT characters)

 

I picked those ones specifically, as I could see them being appropriate and reasonably equivalent choices. If you choose to allow any others, I'd suggest only as Elite Advances with different costs applied to more/less powerful ones.

Badlapje said:

2. do you have any thoughts on whether or not a Genetor should be allowed to also do this to other members of his/her crew?  The Companions of Vogel are actively proposing the idea to genetically augment humanity so it can better cope with the myriad of dangers that beset it.  So if a genetor realises a breakthrough such as Regeneration in himself … why would he not propose this to his RT and his first officers (providing of course they are open to the idea of being augmented), or conversely: why would they not try to buy such an augmentation from the Genetor?

 

It's viable as an option, but obviously not something I had the scope to deal with. I would, just off the top of my head rather than with any major thought, make it an Elite Advance option, subject to successful Scholastic Lore (Chymistry), Chem-Use and/or Medicae Tests, all of which should be fairly difficult and come with unpleasant risks and side-effects (a Genetor will know his own body extremely well, and his augmentations are the result of long and careful study… other people are more… fragile). An example of this would be in the novel Legacy (part 2 of the Shira Calpurnia trilogy), where the Explorator in a Rogue Trader's flotilla attempts to alter one of the crew to make him appear (under technological scrutiny) to be the late Rogue Trader's heir… the lucky recipient of these experiments ends up an insane and cancerous mass of immobile flesh… and he was the most successful attempt.

I think that the suggestion of making an Elite Advance is awesome.  The rules are always guidelines to create a meaningful common ground for us all to work from.  Work with your DM/GM.  I personally wanted to start the game out with a couple of mutations on my Explorator leading me into the Genetor alternate class.  I went with "Unnatural Origin - Contaminated Environs" as my Birthright  from Into the Storm, then spent the extra 100 exp get a roll on the mutation chart, after talking to my GM we decided for an additional 200 exp I could choose my mutation under the 74 and under, I went with Brute.  Then for my Lure of the Void I choose "Tainted" (core rule book) and for 200 exp I choose another mutation - I had not seen the errata yet though and went with Necrophage since it said I could pick anything below 76.  The errata has since corrected that.  

Sept 15, 2010 update

Tainted (page 26): The mutant option under Tainted should
only allow players to select results of 74 or lower, not 76 or lower.

 

I thought it was interesting that the errata also removed two choices for mutations - any thoughts from the author on this errata change???

GENETOR ALTERNATE CAREER RANK
A Machine of Flesh (Talent) (page 82): The Talent Groups
for this Talent should not include Multiple Arms or Winged.

I think I generally agree with the multiple arms one, as it was difficult to figure out what you ended up with looking at the trait versus the mutation table - the table giving you ambidextrous and two weapon fighting talents and the trait giving you +10 toughness and the ability to have two attacks.

I really do not see any problem with the winged one for 500 exp that seems pretty fair.  I would actually like to see this talent "Machine of Flesh" work in a more tiered fashion, with the 1st one costing 200 exp and you can choose from maybe feels no pain, tough hide and sturdy.  Then MoF2 costs 500 exp and you can choose from winged, sonar sense, and brute - then the last advance 700 or 800 to keep the cost at 1500 for all three - regen, corpulent, shadow kin or multiple appendages.

 

I also found a legittimate way to get The Flesh is Weak and Machine of Flesh with out doing any elite advances.  For your second career, pick up an alternate career level of ARCH HERETEK from Hostile Acquisitions - which also gives you access to three really neat talents you can not get any where else, subversive programing, vile intrusion and lumen desecration!!



#18 Vandegraffe

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 09:31 PM

Gwdaver said:

 

I also found a legittimate way to get The Flesh is Weak and Machine of Flesh with out doing any elite advances.  For your second career, pick up an alternate career level of ARCH HERETEK from Hostile Acquisitions - which also gives you access to three really neat talents you can not get any where else, subversive programing, vile intrusion and lumen desecration!!

You do realise that the orthodox mechanicus will go to geat lengths to hunt you down, don't you?  You're just asking for a one way ticket to Sheol 17. 

On a more serious note, should The Flesh is Weak and Machine of Flesh stack?  Yes, you've found a way to do that with the Rules as Written, but I'm not sure it's Rules as Intended…  The MoF talent upgrades the meat, but the FiW basically means you don't have much meat left…  There's not a whole lot there for the genetor to work with.  (Yes, I am trying to apply logic to the 40K setting, why do you ask?)

Cheers,

- V.



#19 Gavinfoxx

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 07:22 PM

Also… Genetors can swim.  That's an advantage, right?



#20 BirdofHermes

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 09:00 AM

Gwdaver said:

I thought it was interesting that the errata also removed two choices for mutations - any thoughts from the author on this errata change???

GENETOR ALTERNATE CAREER RANK
A Machine of Flesh (Talent) (page 82): The Talent Groups
for this Talent should not include Multiple Arms or Winged.

Full Disclosure: Not the author.

I would characterize this as less of an errata change and more of an errata clarification.  If you read the entire box for the "A Machine of Flesh" Talent you will see that Multiple Arms and Winged are not mentioned in the explanation of the Talent.  Every other Mutation/Trait listed in the Talent Group is mentioned however.  Clearly this means that either Multiple Arms and Winged should have been included in the body text of the Talent or not mentioned at all in the first place.






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