Jump to content



Photo

Mistake on Industrialist?


  • Please log in to reply
21 replies to this topic

#1 Hugesinker

Hugesinker

    Member

  • Members
  • 110 posts

Posted 13 February 2011 - 07:03 AM

Tell me if I'm wrong, but the Industrialist power seems to be missing something important.  On all other variants, including the Mayfair edition, when they legitimately win using attack cards, they discard their "stack".  This still made them very tough foes.  However, the new version has no similar stipulation-- so their "stack" is untouchable and always accumulates.  What this means is that after their first two or three losses playing attack cards from their starting hand (even if they make a poor showing, say with '6's each time), thereafter they are practically assured a victory as long as they have a non-negotiate card to play and their power isn't zapped.  Since the power works defensively too, rallying to destroy their alien power is going to be just as difficult, especially in 3 and 4 player games.  Since the 'stack' can be subtracted as well as added, the Anti-matter and Loser are also out of luck too.  I realize that not all powers are supposed to be balanced, but even the Virus has a weakness to certain strategies and against certain other aliens.

As it currently stands, the power appears to eclipse the Warrior and the Fury.  Sure, the Warrior will get a single token even on a win, and the Fury will get a token when they lose ships outside of an encounter-- but these will never accumulate as quickly as Industrialist's attack points.

I think this is an error, especially since this is only supposed to be an intermediate skill level power (yellow).  In my opinion this should be remedied in two possible ways.  One is that you apply the same stipulation as the Mayfair version.  Another is that when Industrialist loses an encounter, the other main player can chose to allow them to win anyway IF they discard their 'stack'-- or maybe instead the Industrialist agrees to GIVE the stack to the opponent to put into their hand in exchange for a win.



#2 arachnidshadow9

arachnidshadow9

    Member

  • Members
  • 70 posts

Posted 13 February 2011 - 07:37 AM

I'd disagree, I think anything that gets rid of their stack short of having too few home colonies would make them severely underpowered. First of all in order to build their stack they have to a) lose encounters putting them at an early disadvantage b) lose using decent valued attack cards in order for the power to build quickly c) lose at situations where the stakes actually matter so that the opponent won't just hand them victory in order to avoid a powerful stack. In addition to this other attack boosting races can have huge advantages early on without losing first. Your example of accumulating three six attack cards for a +18 bonus is still not as powerful as the leviathan's +20 for world ships, or a virus playing and attack 8 with a four ship fleet, and those are right off the bat without losing encounters.



#3 Hugesinker

Hugesinker

    Member

  • Members
  • 110 posts

Posted 13 February 2011 - 08:09 AM

arachnidshadow9 said:

I'd disagree, I think anything that gets rid of their stack short of having too few home colonies would make them severely underpowered. First of all in order to build their stack they have to a) lose encounters putting them at an early disadvantage b) lose using decent valued attack cards in order for the power to build quickly c) lose at situations where the stakes actually matter so that the opponent won't just hand them victory in order to avoid a powerful stack. In addition to this other attack boosting races can have huge advantages early on without losing first. Your example of accumulating three six attack cards for a +18 bonus is still not as powerful as the leviathan's +20 for world ships, or a virus playing and attack 8 with a four ship fleet, and those are right off the bat without losing encounters.

I'm going to respectfully take exception here.

a) They don't need to lose encounters putting them at an early disadvantage they can lose encounters at the same rate as everybody else, or even later than everyone else.  The issue is that they only get to sustain about two losses the entire game as long as they have an attack card.  The Warrior gets attack points that only accumulate, but at a very slow rate.  The Fury gets attack points at a faster rate than Warrior, but a much slower rate than Industrialist, though they need to be spent to be used.  Surely you would call these two even more severely underpowered by the same reasioning.

b) So what?  If they ever lose with a high attack card, they are unstoppable even more quickly.  This isn't a disadvantage.

c) I don't see how they can lose at "situations that really matter" unless everyone has just been letting them win every other time.  If the situation really matters, you need to keep in mind that they'll probably have a high attack card saved up (or in their stack) for just that occasion.

Regarding the Leviathan, in order to get the +20 bonus, they have to risk an entire home planet.  If they lose once, they're probably going to end up with no alien power by the end of the game.  That's why one good strategy is not to use this power until near the very end.  The Industrialist risks nothing and easily accumulates an even greater advantage in just a couple encounters.

Regarding the Virus, it is true that they have an early advantage over the industrialist, as they do over almost everyone else.  But they have a weakness.  They get thinned out and players rally against them.  I don't see any weakness to the Industrialist once they lose only one or two encounters, and this is likely to happen in less than a single game round.

 



#4 Kobold Curry Chef

Kobold Curry Chef

    Member

  • Members
  • 169 posts

Posted 13 February 2011 - 08:23 AM

Have you played the new Industrialist yet? 



#5 Hugesinker

Hugesinker

    Member

  • Members
  • 110 posts

Posted 13 February 2011 - 08:48 AM

Kobold Curry Chef said:

Have you played the new Industrialist yet? 

Yes, I had a 7-Player game last night (my first with CC) and it was awesome.  Another player was the Industrialist, I was the Grudge.  The Prophet ended up winning, and on his first turn although, with the direction-on-play changing right before it would have been his first turn due to a Hazard card, it was still a pretty decent game length.

Part of his win was accomplished by predicting the Industrialist would always win his encounters... and after the first time he lost, throwing an 11 in his stack, it wasn't much of a prediction from there after.  Still fun though, but I will try to make a house rule if Industrialist comes up again.



#6 The Warp

The Warp

    Member

  • Members
  • 318 posts

Posted 13 February 2011 - 01:19 PM

Industrialist does not have a mistake- this is how it's intended to work in this version (so yes, it was changed, but on purpose).

We had Industrialist come up in two games last night, but it didn't win either game- demonstrating that it isn't an unstoppable powerhouse.

The inherent problem with your scenario is that Industrialist has to lose two or three times, and that generally tends to put a player behind everyone else.  Can Industrialist use the newly accumulated power to get back in for the win late in the game?  Well, that's certainly the intention. 

Industrialist is one of those "here, have something for losing" aliens.  It's always nice to get something when you lose, but it's better to win.  Eventually, those "gifts" do end up helping Industrialist to win, but the tricky part is making that happen before it's too late.

Mayfair's Industrialist did discard his stack after finally winning, but then he was back to having absolutely nothing to help him win.   He'd have to lose AGAIN before he could start to build up the stack.  Personally, I never felt that the old Industrialist was a power I hoped to have, because I rarely saw solo wins with it (if it won at all).  The new one is scarier.



#7 Kobold Curry Chef

Kobold Curry Chef

    Member

  • Members
  • 169 posts

Posted 13 February 2011 - 02:21 PM

Thanks!  There's a similar thread burbling on BGG, too.  You're the first to report actually playing with this version of Industrialist, too.



#8 Hugesinker

Hugesinker

    Member

  • Members
  • 110 posts

Posted 13 February 2011 - 04:25 PM

The Warp said:

We had Industrialist come up in two games last night, but it didn't win either game- demonstrating that it isn't an unstoppable powerhouse.

The inherent problem with your scenario is that Industrialist has to lose two or three times, and that generally tends to put a player behind everyone else.  Can Industrialist use the newly accumulated power to get back in for the win late in the game?  Well, that's certainly the intention. 

In larger games, since there is so much time between turns, political strategies can easily be more important than any attack strength even an alien whose power could turn every encounter card they played into an Attack 50 would probably lose most games under these conditions. 

However, I doubt that a game could have four or fewer players with this version of Industrialist losing.  That is, unless they received a starting hand full of negotiates and zeros or something.  If I'm wrong, you'll have to explain what I'm missing here.  In the games I typically play, EVERY player endures at least three losses (if you count both offensive and defensive encounters) before the end of a game this much doesn't even require going through the destiny deck once.  So in this sense, growing to near unstoppable attack strength wouldn't put them behind the pack at all.  Maybe having to lose five or six times, like the Warrior has to do and for a much smaller reward, THAT would put them behind the pack.  That's why Warrior makes sense as a power though even they tend to put a time limit on the current game.  Earning the ability to have even a couple intermittent virtually garanteed wins is a significant advantage, and the inherent strategic benefit of most of the alien powers in the game.

Also, in a one-on-one match, I think the Virus would probably lose most games to the Industrialist.  Wouldn't the required political strategy at least merit an "Advanced" difficulty level, since the Virus does?  Just sayin... it doesn't look right to me.



#9 The Warp

The Warp

    Member

  • Members
  • 318 posts

Posted 14 February 2011 - 04:03 AM

Time will tell.  I think that for myself, when dealt two aliens and one is Industrialist, I would tend to choose most of the other CC aliens over it. 



#10 Adam

Adam

    Member

  • Members
  • 468 posts

Posted 14 February 2011 - 01:45 PM

 If you have four players, three losses means three victories for a smaller pool of opponents, meaning your opponents are likely doing much better than you.  Even if these three losses net you +18, smart opponents will ally strong against you at that point, bringing you down to a +10 difference, which is good, yes, but not unbeatable and not incomparable by any stretch of the imagination.  

You write off Leviathan's ability in comparison with Industrialist because he has to risk a planet to do this, but that's exactly what Industrialist risks when he loses unless you're suggesting that he intentionally lose three times on offense, waiting for his fourth turn before trying to win, in which case, I'd think that a questionable strategy at best.  

Likewise, yes, Virus can get thinned out toward the end, but I would imagine Industrialist would be too if he's been losing all this time.  The trick for both of them is not to let that happen.

I must admit I haven't played him yet but that will change tomorrow, and I'll certainly amend my thoughts if I do find he is too powerful.  However, I'm not really worried about Industrialist.  Trickster seems more obnoxious than anything, and Claw, The seems equally gimmicky, but we shall see.  There is only one true test to determine who is and is not fit to dwell in this cosmos...



#11 Hugesinker

Hugesinker

    Member

  • Members
  • 110 posts

Posted 16 February 2011 - 06:36 AM

Adam said:

 You write off Leviathan's ability in comparison with Industrialist because he has to risk a planet to do this, but that's exactly what Industrialist risks when he loses unless you're suggesting that he intentionally lose three times on offense, waiting for his fourth turn before trying to win, in which case, I'd think that a questionable strategy at best. 

The difference is Leviathan is risking a planet when they otherwise would not be.  It's not a handicap that Industrialist is risking a planet as the defense because this is the case for everyone else too.  Also, I don't understand why Industrialist would ever intentionally lose.  They also get to threaten people into letting them win with their power.  My guess is, unless the game or an alien power is at stake, people are usually just going to let them win if they are playing a 10 or better.

Another reason to suspect that the power is broken is in the wording on the card: "...add or subtract the total of all the faceup cards".  Why does it say 'faceup' twice in the description, when there is no way for the cards to be turned over?  Maybe the cards are supposed to be turned facedown when they win via the normal method?  I'd really like some official input on this.



#12 Kobold Curry Chef

Kobold Curry Chef

    Member

  • Members
  • 169 posts

Posted 16 February 2011 - 11:21 AM

If you're looking for official, then scroll up a bit.  The Warp is about as wired in to official as you'll get on these boards...



#13 Zomber

Zomber

    Member

  • Members
  • 21 posts

Posted 16 February 2011 - 03:17 PM

I haven't played with the Conflict Aliens yet, but my first impression is to agree with Hugesinker. As the Warp says...time will tell, but before that happens, I can surely have some fun speculating:

 

Assuming an average card value of 8, after three losses, Industrialist has a +24 in his encounters, putting him on par (or better) with Leviathan. Only Industrialist has the advantage of using his bonus on offense and defense. And Industrialist continues to improve, Leviathan doesn't.

Warrior would have to lose 12 times to reach this same level.

With the Mayfair version, the Industrialist never had to worry about losing too many encounters in a row. After losing two, three, maybe four encounters, he was pretty much guaranteed a win on the next one. With the new version, once Industrialist reaches that breakpoint, it seems like it would take a major effort to win an encounter against him...and if everyone allys against him, and uses all their Reinforcements and best encounter cards to defeat him, it just makes him that much more impossible to beat the next time.

The Warp said:

The inherent problem with your scenario is that Industrialist has to lose two or three times, and that generally tends to put a player behind everyone else. Can Industrialist use the newly accumulated power to get back in for the win late in the game? Well, that's certainly the intention.

I would think that losing 2 or 3 times as a main player wouldn't happen very 'late in the game'.  If its late in the game and Industrialist hasn't lost 2 or 3 times, he's probably already won?

The Warp said:

Industrialist is one of those "here, have something for losing" aliens. It's always nice to get something when you lose, but it's better to win. Eventually, those "gifts" do end up helping Industrialist to win, but the tricky part is making that happen before it's too late.

Lets hypothesize on 3 losses (of 9 ships total) with some other powers that 'get something for losing': 

1) Vacuum:   can drag 9 other ships to the warp with him. 

2) Ethic: can take 9 cards from opponent or deck.

3) Fury:  gets 9 tokens worth +27 for one-time usage, and usually not efficiently used since Fury must decide to use them before cards are revealed.  There's nothing as fun as spending a bunch of Fury tokens, and then your opponent has an N. 

4) Guerilla:  can make others lose a variable number (I'll say an average total of 6-9) of opponents ships to the warp...

5) Hacker:  gets to choose which cards to take as compensation....and must lose in a specifc way (playing an N)

6) Reincarnator:  gets to have a new random power.

7) Spiff:  gets a base....and must lose in a specific way, and be on offense.

8) Warrior:  gets +6 for future encounters

9) Industrialist:  gets (an average of) +24 for future encounters.

Who has the best outcome?  Although it could be argued that Spiff has a slightly better outcome for winning the game, his restrictions tip the scale to Industrialist in my opinion.

The Warp said:


We had Industrialist come up in two games last night, but it didn't win either game- demonstrating that it isn't an unstoppable powerhouse.

This is good to hear.  Was it a quick game of everyone allying on offense for bases all the time?

 The Warp said:


 Personally, I never felt that the old Industrialist was a power I hoped to have, because I rarely saw solo wins with it (if it won at all). The new one is scarier.

 

Amen brother!  I want my Cosmic Conflict.  Can't find it locally, guess I need to order in online.



#14 Groovydoc

Groovydoc

    Member

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 16 February 2011 - 03:39 PM

So Zomber, we meet again, and this time, I am the AntiMatter.  Actually, not much to add here, as I think a few test runs with the new stuff is in order.

On that note, is the base set reprinting, or have I missed an announcement?  I'd like to get my own set so Zomber doesn't have to haul it all the way to my place for this summer's gamestravaganza.

Stay Groovy.



#15 The Warp

The Warp

    Member

  • Members
  • 318 posts

Posted 17 February 2011 - 10:19 AM

+24 is definitely scary, and about what you'd want to have if you've already lost 3 encounters.  Because at that point, at least one and probably a couple players are likely one or two foreign colonies ahead of you.  It depends on how likely players are to invite Industrialist to ally on offense.  At this point, it's been in three games of CE that I've played, and still has yet to claim victory (even shared).  Each game was about average in length (everyone got a turn and most players got two).  I haven't yet seen anyone give Industrialist the win in lieu of adding to his stack, mostly because he's been behind, and they weren't worried about it.

Keep in mind also- Industrialist has to lose with an attack card.  If he's not playing negotiates early, he ends up having to play them later when he was maybe hoping to add 24 to his totals.  Hand management is still a major factor.  Don't invite him as an ally for defense either!



#16 Groovydoc

Groovydoc

    Member

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 17 February 2011 - 02:12 PM

In a lot of our group's games, powers like this strike fear into the competing players.  It seems like more often than not, the scary power is stripped right when it is about to get useful/overwhelming, often due to the cooperation of the other players.



#17 Zomber

Zomber

    Member

  • Members
  • 21 posts

Posted 18 February 2011 - 05:21 PM

Groovy!  You've expertly tracked me down once again. 

Nice try with the Antimatter, but Industrialist can subtract his stack.  I'd group him in the 'big boys' club with Warrior, Warpish, Leviathan and Virus (sorry Macrons need not apply), which puts him in good company...but unlike the rest of this group, Industrialist laughs at Loser and AM.

As far as the reprint on the base game, someone mentioned they thought it was due this spring somewhere in another thread.  You could keep your eye on ebay for one if you don't mind paying premium$ or maybe get lucky.   Either way, grab the first expansion before you have the same problem!

Prepare yourself for our Cosmic clash this summer!



#18 Hugesinker

Hugesinker

    Member

  • Members
  • 110 posts

Posted 19 February 2011 - 09:50 AM

One thing I see a few people saying is that the power only works after they lose a couple encounters.  This isn't true.  The intimidation factor makes sure they will usually win playing strong attack cards more often than other players too.  In one of our games, the first encounter with industrialist had him losing after playing with a 21.  There were like five allies against him.  He ended up taking a colony anyway, just because most players didn't want him to have that card in his stack.  Typically, everyone gets a starting hand with a couple winner cards and a bunch of losers.  You need to lose a few encounters, its just part of the game.  The trick is to take something valuable from your opponents even when you lose.  I don't see how losing just three encounters is such a big deal unless you are the first to do it.  Since their strength usually  increases so quickly, it seems very difficult to rally against them to take the power away.  If anyone has been successful trying this, let me know.

I mean, the fact that it eclipses other official powers is a red flag by itself in my opinion.



#19 Kobold Curry Chef

Kobold Curry Chef

    Member

  • Members
  • 169 posts

Posted 23 February 2011 - 08:42 AM

Usually, if you lose three encounters, you're not going to win the game.

I've seen Industrialist three times so far in games.  Twice, it wasn't even a factor.  Just a terrible power that never got off the ground.  The third game, it won, but only because its destiny was drawn for the first two encounters of the game.  It tanked each encounter with an 08 and an 04 not individually big enough to warrant his opponent giving him a win on defense.  The +12 from that point helped Industrialist charge ahead, but he was always in danger of losing that third home colony.  And he still needed a Force Field to get the win on his last encounter.

Prophet and Xenophile have far more effect on games.  I've seen Xenophile pick up a +12 on a single defensive encounter, AND gain compensation.  Try doing that with Industrialist.  You can't.



#20 Hugesinker

Hugesinker

    Member

  • Members
  • 110 posts

Posted 23 February 2011 - 01:50 PM

Kobold Curry Chef said:

Prophet and Xenophile have far more effect on games.  I've seen Xenophile pick up a +12 on a single defensive encounter, AND gain compensation.  Try doing that with Industrialist.  You can't.

Yikes, more than 12+?!  There are certain things you just don't do when encountering certain aliens like driving a hard bargain when negotiating with the Zombie.  Gathering four allies together to encounter the Xenophile is one of these, and one easily avoided toounless some weird flare comes up, which I can't rule out.  I don't think this is a fair comparison with having to let Industrialist win encounters to avoid even greater and more intractable future gains.

I do recognize that there are game scenereos, especially in larger games, where Industrialist is likely to lose but I could say the same thing for an alien whose power was to automatically win every encounter as long as they play an attack card.  This just can't be used as the sole criteria for determining whether a power is solid and not broken.






© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS