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Kicker, mathematics, timing


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#1 JasonJ

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 12:42 PM

Okay, fairly specific situation, but there are a few times it may occur, and this happened with one player on 4 colonies and going for the win...

 

Player one attacks player two (player one going for win).

 

Player two, the Oracle, uses his power and forces player one to play his encounter card face up - player one uses a 10 as his attack.

 

Player two plays a kicker face-down, and plays his attack card.

 

Player one uses a wild flare (Calculator) that allows him to guess whether the combined attack values are odd or even - if he is right, player 2's attack card is reduced by the value of player 1's attack card; if he is wrong, player 1's attack card is reduced by the value of player 2's card.

 

Player one guesses odd.

 

Player two reveals a 7, with a x3 kicker.  Player 1's guess was right.

 

Now the game bogs down into a rules scramble which cannot be resolved because the problem simply isn't addressed in the base rules, CI rules, or the FAQ.

 

In what order do the mathematics work here?

 

(7 - 10) and then x 3?

 

(7 x 3) and then -10?

 

Does the kicker permanently modify the attack card (in other words become part of it), and, if so, WHEN does it do so?  The moment it is played?  The moment it is turned face up? 

 

Does it all happen at once, and so follow the general timing rules - offence effect (Calculator wild flare), then defence effect (kicker)?  This would mean different results with the same mathematical operations depending on which player uses which card.

 

 



#2 The Warp

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 02:09 AM

Card value is always determined before applying kicker effects.



#3 Adam

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 03:58 AM

Wild Calculator activates when cards are revealed.  Kickers apply when figuring encounter totals.  The flare acts first.  I think kickers always take effect last, but there are way too many abilities to say for certain.



#4 JasonJ

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 01:06 PM

Okay, now why do you say that it happens in that order?  I can find nothing to indicate how it should go.  I don't much care either way, I just want something official to settle this when next it comes up.  Please provide a supporting argument from the rules, or, better yet, a designer (I know that a number of playtesters are on these boards, and maybe even designers).

 

Wild calculator does indeed get used before the reveal, but that doesn't seem relevant to the mathematics.

 

 



#5 Kobold Curry Chef

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 04:53 PM

The Warp is both a playtester and occasional designer of aliens for CE.



#6 The Warp

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 01:56 AM

As guidance, I used the Morph ruling in the FAQ that explains how card value is determined before applying effects:

"For instance, if the Tripler revealed a Morph and his opponent revealed a 12, the Morph would become a 12 and then get divided to a 4 by Tripler’s power. On the other hand, if Tripler revealed the 12 and his opponent revealed the Morph, the Morph would become a 12, but would not get divided to a 4 just because the card it morphed into did."

So, the card value is determined before you do anything do it.



#7 Adam

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 01:59 AM

Also, Wild Calculator takes effect "when cards are revealed," while Kickers don't say this.  I assumed that this meant the Wild happens immediately when the card is revealed, before other effects, or is it just a redundant declaration of phase needlessly clarifying the timing strip?



#8 Kobold Curry Chef

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 04:52 AM

I suspect that it's just redundant wording, but I'm not sure.

This is an interesting discussion.  I've always thought that Kickers were just kinda "welded" to their encounter cards, and intrinsic to them.  In other words, there's no timing involved; the Kicker and the encounter card are treated as a single card for purposes of deciding what the number really is.  So, I would have said that the calculation happens after the Kicker. 

But that would do weird things with Mirror. And come to think of it, when we've played Mirror with Kickers, we've always done the Mirror power and then applied the Kicker...so I could just be not consistent.



#9 Adam

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 05:09 PM

I believe it's part of the encounter total math, not some kind of alteration of the card.  When Virus multiplies his 10 card by his 4 ships, the card doesn't become a 40.  The Kicker would say something to indicate that the card "becomes" or "is changed to" such and such.  I don't have it with me, but I believe it just says you multiply the two, and in order to multiply the card, you'd have to figure out what the card is first, so the "when you reveal encounter card" effects would have to take place first, no?  That's why I think of that line as meaning "immediately when the card is revealed" rather than just explaining what phase is intended, as there are different subphases.






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