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The Ending theory


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#1 JerusalemJones

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 06:36 AM

I got into this discussion on Facebook with Gualdo (I believe, though I might eb wrong) about how he wants to see Jon Snow ont he Iron Throne at the end of the books. Here's what I wrote in reply, and I'm using it as a jumping baord for this discussion. Not sure if I'm on the right track here, but it seemed worth sharing.

 

I've always felt that if there is a Night's Watch at the end of the series, Jon will stay at the Wall. However, I've had a new thought today: we always look at the ending through the view of Westeros, and who will sit the Iron Throne. But GRRM is telling the story via three location: the Wall and beyond, Westeros, and the east (Dany). Let's look at the analogy of "the Dragon has three heads," and apply it the ending. The world has three locations (though large and vague), and will need three leaders. Stannis is trying to win Westeros, Jon is trying to save the realm at the Wall, and although Dany is looking to return to Westeros, she is currently leading locations in the East.

 

It is likely safe to say that at some point Dany will come west, and the great battle with the Others will take place. And we're all assuming that the Others lose (which I think is a safe assumption; if the series ends with the Others controlling the world, I think there will be a large number of GRRM haters out there). This reinvigorates the need for the Wall, and Jon stays there to help rebuild the Watch, and possibly rule the North (above and below the Wall). Dany, realizing that she is needed to rule not just in Westeros but in the East as well returns there to rule those states (who, lets face it, will also be threatened by the Others, and may partake in the Battle as well). This leaves Stannis to rule over Westeros (remember that Axel Florent saw Stannis sitting the Iron Throne in a fire vision, even if it was just imagined).

This is only the birth of an idea, but I am seeing a sort of neatness to this ending. And it's one I'm willing to discuss.



#2 DerBarchen

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 10:10 PM

I had a Very similar thought a few days ago, minus the Jon Snow bit.

I kind of assume that Dany will come over and join Stannis in an epic battle of uber awesome against the Others and then realise that Westeros is kind of Meh compared to Essos and all its wonders (especially after she establishes what is essentially a new Freehold on Essos) and leaves Westeros to Stannis thus proving the ever doubted but always correct fire-visions.

That said, I have this inexplicable, totally unfounded or unsupourted but non the less Mighty feeling that Dany dies. I dont know Where it comes from but am I the only one? She seems Very Deathbound to me, pardon the cheesy Lcg analogy.



#3 Saturnine

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 10:51 PM

 My prediction is that everybody dies :P

Joking aside, clearly Jon Snow and Daenerys are important, being relatives and all (presumably). I don't think Jon will ever sit a throne of any kind. And I really have no prediction what'll happen with Stannis. Obviously he has a role to play in the war against the Others, but beyond that, I've no clue.

The one character's fate I care most about is Arya, but I suspect she will die tragically. But hopefully she'll get to kick some ass before she kicks the bucket.



#4 DerBarchen

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 12:45 AM

Saturnine said:

The one character's fate I care most about is Arya, but I suspect she will die tragically. But hopefully she'll get to kick some ass before she kicks the bucket.

Its funny how George has created this prevalent sense that Everyone will Die at some point, especially if you like them. If you think about it apart from Ned and Arys Oeakheart (excluding the prologues ofcourse) no POV character has died. Theon is in Dance and Catelyn is now Franken-Cat.

Arya IS fascinating to read though, I guess her role depends almost entirely on how big a time gap he leaves between books? With Arya the two most likely scenarios in my mind are either: 1. Big time gap, where Arya comes back as a trained assassin and makes evil people go away or 2. Small time gap and Arya doesnt spend much more time in the temple of the Faceless Men and sets forth on her own quest, possibly to subconsciously find Nymeria again since shes having more an more wolf dreams?



#5 Saturnine

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 01:05 AM

DerBarchen said:

Its funny how George has created this prevalent sense that Everyone will Die at some point, especially if you like them. If you think about it apart from Ned and Arys Oeakheart (excluding the prologues ofcourse) no POV character has died. 

 

Heh, I hadn't thought about that, but you're right. Well, Catelyn really did die, though. And frankly, I'd have prefered if she'd stayed dead.



#6 DerBarchen

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 01:11 AM

Saturnine said:

Well, Catelyn really did die, though. And frankly, I'd have prefered if she'd stayed dead.

I cant help but get the feeling that Im the only one who likes Lady Stoneheart. Whats everyone's beef with her?

If you wana talk irritating characters go no further than Darkstar o.O



#7 Saturnine

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 01:21 AM

DerBarchen said:

Saturnine said:

 

 

 

I cant help but get the feeling that Im the only one who likes Lady Stoneheart. Whats everyone's beef with her?

 

She always says things "too sharply" (seriously, this phrase has to appear a dozen times in the first book alone). Other than that, I don't know, I just don't enjoy her chapters. Something about her rubs me the wrong way. I'd have prefered a zombie Robb (Rob Zombie, haha) over a zombie Catelyn. :)



#8 Starblayde

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 11:10 PM

Is Stannis really one of the Three Heads of the Dragon? I doubt it. Presuming (as I do) that Jon and Dany are related, they are surely two of the three, but where is the third coming from? I think you're probably putting too much emphasis on Ser Axel Florent's dream, as he surely could have just imagined it, rather than it actually being a prophecy, of sorts. A character we've not seen yet? Another Stark? Tyrion?

I agree that Dany seems very Deathbound, though, and that if there is a still Night's Watch by the end of the series, Jon will still be oathbound to it. Throw in the wolf dreams/warging from the various Stark children and we've got a great recipe for a climatic final battle, though something tells me that treachery, ambition and vengeance will have a part to play after the wars are won and lost, and we're unlikely to expect the final outcome.

In the shorter-term, I'm more interesting in quite what Littlefinger is up to. He appears to be positioning himself to take over half of Westeros, as ruler of Harrenhal, the Eyrie/Vale and Winterfell in one fell swoop. This may or may not end well, of course ;)

 

All we know is that Winter is Coming, and so is Fire and Blood. Can't wait.



#9 Saturnine

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 01:05 AM

I don't really think too much about the ending in general or the 3 dragon riders in particular, although I do subscribe to the popular theory with regards to Jon.

Apparently one of the many theories floating about is that Tyrion is a Targaryen, given his fascination with dragons and the chronological possibility of Tywin's wife having willing or forced relations with a Targaryen, but I don't buy it. (Don't ask me for details on this, I've only heard about it).

Ultimately, I suspect that the dragons will play a big role in the war against the others, what with their vulnerability to fire and all, but someting will get in the way of Dany uniting the kingdoms again and ruling on the Iron Throne. I feel Westeros is likely to remain split into different kingdoms when the series is done. One also has to wonder if the dragons will be in Dany's control until the end at all, what with the Dragon Horn being "in play."



#10 Starblayde

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 11:27 PM

Saturnine said:

Apparently one of the many theories floating about is that Tyrion is a Targaryen, given his fascination with dragons and the chronological possibility of Tywin's wife having willing or forced relations with a Targaryen, but I don't buy it. (Don't ask me for details on this, I've only heard about it).

Other than what you've stated already (he's drawn to dragons and the timing of his conception), the idea is developed by suggesting that once Mrs Lannister (I forget her name for the moment) was with child, they tried to abort the baby, but it didn't work and the complications not only produced a deformed child, but also killed the mother.

It sounds pretty out of whack to me, but stranger things have happened in this story already.


 

 



#11 DerBarchen

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 11:16 PM

Wasnt there some stuff about Joanna Lannister being raped by the king? I think I remember something along those lines.

I think everyone is overlooking Quentyn Martell o.O I mean, the martells havnt even come into play yet and George wouldnt set them up as he did in Feast to just have them be unimportant. Atleast I hope not =P

Also Victarion is around, theres a chance he could be one of the dragon heads. It seems that a civil war between Vicatrion and Euron would be likely if Dany fell for Victarion. Which isnt totally impossible since he's basically drogo with arm floats!



#12 Saturnine

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 11:26 PM

DerBarchen said:

Which isnt totally impossible since he's basically drogo with arm floats!

Ahahaha! That made my day.



#13 Mighty Jim

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 02:05 AM

I find it unlikely that Jon Snow will still be commander of the Watch at the end of the books.

 The fact that they mention explicitly that he is the 998th Lord Commander seems to obvious an element not to be deliberate- surely at some point in the books, we'll see the 1000th?

Whether it's because he's off ruling Westeros with Dany, ruling The North as Robb's heir (if one of the missing messangers has a message legitimising him, then his age would give him precedence over Bran, right? dead, or whatever else, I'm pretty sure something different will have happened to him from now.



#14 Saturnine

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 04:08 AM

Mighty Jim said:

 The fact that they mention explicitly that he is the 998th Lord Commander seems to obvious an element not to be deliberate- surely at some point in the books, we'll see the 1000th?

I don't think the number 1000 has any significance for George with regard to the story he is telling, and if it is, he has given no indication.

I'd be surprised if Jon is not still part of the Night's Watch in the end (or at least until his end). Sure, he's almost deserted once, but I feel like he's accepted that he belongs there now.



#15 Starblayde

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 09:57 PM

Saturnine said:

Mighty Jim said:

 

 The fact that they mention explicitly that he is the 998th Lord Commander seems to obvious an element not to be deliberate- surely at some point in the books, we'll see the 1000th?

 

 

I don't think the number 1000 has any significance for George with regard to the story he is telling, and if it is, he has given no indication.

It's so close to a milestone number that storytelling demands that Lord Commanders #999 and #1000 will appear at some point.

Either that, or GRRM is deliberately playing with the idea that 1000 is no more significant a number than any other.



#16 Saturnine

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 10:27 PM

Why would the number have any significance to the story? I think it's silly to assume just because 998 is close to 1000 that the story is compelled to give us two more Lord Commanders. If Jon was #997, would we get three more? If he was #990, would we get 10? Will the 1000th Lord Commander be uber-special? Who'd be more special than Jon? Janos Slynt?



#17 Starblayde

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 11:03 PM

Saturnine said:

Why would the number have any significance to the story?

Because it's a significant number, and because of the fact that every detail given in a story is important. Conservation of detail, and all that. Why is he the 998th Commander? Why not the 675th, 1093rd, or any other number?

My point is: Why even mention the exact number at all? It's either (a) to make 1000 important in some way (e.g. the last, greatest, etc., for whatever reason), or (b) in order to screw with us that 1000 is a significant number, but isn't in this story.

Not exactly Chekhov's Number, but close.



#18 JerusalemJones

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 01:34 PM

I'm going with option B. That seems to be Martin's MO. Make us think something or someone is important, and then ignore it entirely or kill it.



#19 Skowza

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 08:23 AM

I can't find this anywhere, but I thought it was mentioned in one of the books that they think they are approaching the 1000th Commander but the number may not actually be correct?



#20 DerBarchen

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 07:25 AM

I have the feeling that Jon will stay Lord Comander atleast untill he gets to do something cool, Others wise. I just finished the 4th book and saw a pattern. Quentyn Martell brings Dany to Drone (Possible, since Dorne already suppourts her and she needs a foothold in Westeros from which to stage her invasion) then Sarella (Alleras, whatever) lets Dany know about the shennanigans thats going down at the wall through Samwell. Boom, Now Dany has a perfectaly good reason to go to the Wall.

Also, how mental would it be if Jon was the prince that was pormised?

On a totaly different note, does anyone remember that really old GRRM interview where they asked him about Rhaegar's kids and he was like "Rahaynes is dead. Ageon...well...no comment" What do we think of that? =P






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