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Defend tokens (WotN)...


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#1 Artemis

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 06:29 PM

Just for a clarification:

Defend tokens may be used for 2 benefits:

  • while a unit has it, the token counts as a given unit would have keywords heavy armour and stalwart
  • it may be discarded so that a given unit gains a concurrent counterattack with an enemy attack.

Ok. It is clear. But my question is: If I decide to use its second option, may I still use its first option. I..e while I counterattack an enemy unit, do I still have abilities heavy armor and stalwart? Or may I use this token only for either option?

Thanks for a feedback.



#2 monk

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 09:59 PM

From the wording of the rules you get to do both. They aren't 'options' as you put it, they are abilities. The rules say 'A defender unit has the fllowing abilities...'

So, if a unit has a defend token in its hex then it gains heavy armour and stalwart. If it is then attacked by an enemy it can use it's stalwart ability to counterattack at the same time (therefore defending as one rank higher). The token is then removed due to the counterattack.

Remember, the token can be removed before hand if the unit is eliminated, ordered or forced to move. However, my question would be 'what happens if you use this counter attack against an enemy and you both roll more than one flag? Do you both retreat?'.



#3 Artemis

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 11:46 PM

monk said:

From the wording of the rules you get to do both. They aren't 'options' as you put it, they are abilities. The rules say 'A defender unit has the fllowing abilities...'

So, if a unit has a defend token in its hex then it gains heavy armour and stalwart. If it is then attacked by an enemy it can use it's stalwart ability to counterattack at the same time (therefore defending as one rank higher). The token is then removed due to the counterattack.

Remember, the token can be removed before hand if the unit is eliminated, ordered or forced to move. However, my question would be 'what happens if you use this counter attack against an enemy and you both roll more than one flag? Do you both retreat?'.

I understand a behavior of this token little bit differently:

If a unit has this token, it always counterattacks as having a heavy armor, not only when counterattacking simultaneously with an enemy.

Suppose two different enemy units attack my unit, which has a defend token. First enemy unit attacks and treats my unit as one rank higher (due to its token). I decide to counterattack normally, after enemy's attack, so I do not discard defend token. Then attacks second enemy unit and now I decide to discard my defend token and do my counterattack simultaneously with it. That was the point of my question: do I still count heavy armor and stalwart from the now discarded defend token? (my unit could gain stalwart due to 2 neighboring units, not only due to a defend token). After this simultaneous counterattacks my unit has lost a defend token and if it is attacked by another enemy unit, it will defend normally (without heavy armor keyword) and will counterattack only if it has either a native stalwart or stalwart gained via 2 other adjacent friendly units.

As to your question about both units causing flag results:

It depends whether both units have stalwart keyword. But no matter, taken logically they both should retreat (if each receives at least one non-negated flag). Normally would retreat only a unit, that was attacked first.



#4 monk

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 12:26 AM

Artemis said:

 

I understand a behavior of this token little bit differently:

If a unit has this token, it always counterattacks as having a heavy armor, not only when counterattacking simultaneously with an enemy.

Suppose two different enemy units attack my unit, which has a defend token. First enemy unit attacks and treats my unit as one rank higher (due to its token). I decide to counterattack normally, after enemy's attack, so I do not discard defend token. Then attacks second enemy unit and now I decide to discard my defend token and do my counterattack simultaneously with it. That was the point of my question: do I still count heavy armor and stalwart from the now discarded defend token? (my unit could gain stalwart due to 2 neighboring units, not only due to a defend token). After this simultaneous counterattacks my unit has lost a defend token and if it is attacked by another enemy unit, it will defend normally (without heavy armor keyword) and will counterattack only if it has either a native stalwart or stalwart gained via 2 other adjacent friendly units.

As to your question about both units causing flag results:

It depends whether both units have stalwart keyword. But no matter, taken logically they both should retreat (if each receives at least one non-negated flag). Normally would retreat only a unit, that was attacked first.

I get you now. As the rules say 'token may be discarded to have the defender unit resolve its counterattack as the same time...' you want to know if you still have the heavy armor ability during the counterattack, correct? This seems to be a matter of timing. From the 'specific' rules point of view it seems you probably don't get heavy armor as you have to discard the defend token for a simultaneous counter attack. The rules state you are only a defender (with heavy armor and stalwart) if you have a defend token in your hex. As you have to discard the token to carry out the counterattack then technically you are not the defender and lose heavy armor and stalwart.

However, some of the rules are written poorly throughout the whole game and expansions. It may be worth seeing what other members write here about the 'timing' of abilities etc.

 



#5 Mancini

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 02:22 AM

I dont have WotN

Could you explain what new things this expansion brings such as the defend tokens, the marsh terrain and new game mechanics



#6 KenToad

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 07:22 AM

I think if you discard the token to resolve your counter-attack simultaneously, then you lose Stalwart and Heavy Armor, as you've just gotten rid of the defender token.  And, it makes sense that you're no longer holding your shields up if you decide to cross swords with the enemy.

But, yes, yet another example of a lack of clarification in the rules.  I doubt this issue will go away anytime soon.



#7 monk

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 10:43 PM

Mancini said:

I dont have WotN

Could you explain what new things this expansion brings such as the defend tokens, the marsh terrain and new game mechanics

You get 3 commanders: I have added their abilities and commit abilities (although I haven't gone into exact detail!!):

Smalljon: Pursue 1 when counterattacking & ralley 2 adjacent units (can add 1 figure if not at full strength).

Galbart Glover: Heavy armor & re-arrange command tokens on commander cards.

Rodrik Cassel: Stalwart, defender & counterattack with adjacent friendly units.

New units:

Hearth lancers: Can change between wedge and line formation (either add morale result to rolls or enemy can't flank this units & unit gets +1 attack. Ranged units add +1 to attacks on lancers).

Sheildmaidens: defender (can have heavy armor, stalwart and ability to counterattack at same time as enemy attack rather than after).

Trident Bearers: Deflect & polearm (discard order tokens to avoid hits & +1 die against cavalry).

Terrain:

marsh: Stop when entering. When in a marsh either move 1 hex or attack and lose stalwart. Ranged units get +1 die when attacking units in a marsh.

Large multi-hex building: used in scenario.

 

Cheers



#8 Mancini

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 03:16 AM

Tanks Monk      :)

I have now buy WotW (love Sandor) , but since i dont have the economical disponiblility  :P  to buy all expansions im going to just buy just  some of them and i tink i will pass on WotN and LotRivers :(



#9 KenToad

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 05:57 AM

Mancini said:

Tanks Monk      :)

I have now buy WotW (love Sandor) , but since i dont have the economical disponiblility  :P  to buy all expansions im going to just buy just  some of them and i tink i will pass on WotN and LotRivers :(

Yeah, I bought both the Lannister and Stark expansions, but I may pass on the Lords of the River.  Blackfish is tempting, but I guess I will wait and see about the rest of the content before I decide.

As for the two Wardens sets, West is definitely superior.  The crossbowmen and militia are very interesting and cool units.  Also, yes the Hound and the Imp are two of the most interesting characters in the novels and they appear to be fairly powerful in the game, too ( I haven't played with the expansion yet). 

I wasn't too excited about the North expansion, but I had a plan to use all three boxes to store all the components with my homemade storage trays and I wouldn't have been able to do that as easily with just one of the two expansions.

As for the Northern expansion, on the bright side, it includes a scenario involving the kneeling man, which is a key location in the books.  Also, the quality of the three scenarios looks right up there with the best.  I think Rob Kouba does his finest work as a scenario designer.  I've been consistently impressed by his creative, varied and genuinely inspired scenarios.  They look especially good when you compare them to the "standard" Battlelore scenario.  I played all the base Battlelore scenarios and I could hardly tell one from another.  Westeros' scenarios in the core game are an amazing leap above that.

Another reason to get both expansions is to be able to play epic scenarios.  I have a copy of the epic scenario that was included as a free giveaway at the Days of Fire and Ice event at FFG.  I plan to modify it to use all the units from the core set and the expansions, rather than two core sets.  Also, I will  print and mount some extra hexes to a second-hand trivial pursuit board to expand the battlefield.  The epic scenario only uses about two-thirds of the extra board, so you don't really need a full-size extra board.



#10 monk

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 12:01 AM

I played a skirmish yesterday (lions Den) and it went great.

I was stark with Eddard and roddrick Castle as commanders. I had a unit of trident bearers and mormont maidens who were great. The defend token worked brilliantly (especially placing it after advancing) and Rodricks flip ability was awesome (all adjacent units counterattack as one). Eddard is also able to to add one to counterattacks.

The lannisters had Tywin and Daven bt only the standard units fromt the main game. Lannister had more units but I had more higher ranking units.

The game was very close, it came down to the last move!!! Starks used stalwart to the best whislt lannister went all in for hit and run (my higher rank units made it difficult to move around). Anyway, I won. I really liked the marshes, commanders I used and the maidens and think WotN is great.

 






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