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Valkary Rules Question


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#1 Moggle121

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 12:47 PM

The valkary states that she takes followers when they are killed.

 

Does that mean any time a follower hits the discard pile or returns to the purchase or stables deck? Or only if the result of the follower being removed was a card that stated death or resembles death like insted of losing a life discard this follower?

 

Opinions?



#2 Persiatic

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 01:19 PM

Hi

Everywere the word discard is used then Valks skill does NOT work. If the wording is killed it works



#3 Moggle121

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 01:48 PM

what if the follower is discarded because they fell down the chasm they are technically dieing?



#4 Moggle121

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 01:54 PM

sorry the chasm does say kill what about the ice bridge or the vampires tower?

also what about the hieromartyr who you discard insted of losing a life they are all dieing thematicly

 

opinions?



#5 Persiatic

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 09:32 AM

As I said if the word discard is used then valkyries skill does not work how thematicly it even is



#6 The_Warlock

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 12:56 AM

Persiatic said:

As I said if the word discard is used then valkyries skill does not work how thematicly it even is

While we're waiting for a 100% clear and official rule, I figured out this way to handle things:

- Followers that are discarded in order to perform some effect CANNOT be taken by the Valkyrie (St. Josephine, Hieromartyr, Beastmaster and others)

- Followers discarded in any other way (killed, forcibly discarded, sacrificed to Vampire's Tower, Vampire Prince or other "Follower killers") are good for the Valkyrie to take.

Perhaps it could be better if the Valkyrie was simply allowed to take ANY Follower that hits the discard pile. This will disallow her to take Followers like the Warhorse from Stable deck (because he's returned to that deck, he does not go to the discard pile) or the Mules from the Purchase Deck, but will grant every discarded Follower that's discarded. There are not too many in a game to say this will grant her an overly powerful ability.

The problem with Champion/Faithful Hound/Friendly Giant is still there. With them she becomes virtually invincible in the applicable type of combat.



#7 EvilEdwin

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Posted 27 December 2010 - 10:06 PM

Also, if the Valkyrie gets hold of St Josephine she technically has infinite lives. I think the use of the word "kill" in her game text was used very deliberately so to have control over when he ability comes into effect. Allowing her to take any Followers can lead to nightmare situations making her overpowered and taking the fun out of the game.



#8 Dam

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Posted 27 December 2010 - 10:46 PM

EvilEdwin said:

Also, if the Valkyrie gets hold of St Josephine she technically has infinite lives. I think the use of the word "kill" in her game text was used very deliberately so to have control over when he ability comes into effect. Allowing her to take any Followers can lead to nightmare situations making her overpowered and taking the fun out of the game.

That's only if you allow Valkyrie to work with just discarded Followers. Use the strict "kill" (or slain) keyword for it and it's not an issue most of the time (excluding the combos with Follower Warlock mentioned).


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#9 The_Warlock

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 10:57 PM

Dam said:

EvilEdwin said:

 

Also, if the Valkyrie gets hold of St Josephine she technically has infinite lives. I think the use of the word "kill" in her game text was used very deliberately so to have control over when he ability comes into effect. Allowing her to take any Followers can lead to nightmare situations making her overpowered and taking the fun out of the game.

 

 

That's only if you allow Valkyrie to work with just discarded Followers. Use the strict "kill" (or slain) keyword for it and it's not an issue most of the time (excluding the combos with Follower Warlock mentioned).

Right, better not to allow all discarded followers to be resurrected or Valkyrie will have endless powers with St. Josephine and similars. Before making suggestions I should figure out everything but I'm afraid I can't.

I wish I could stick to the word killed/slain, but it doesn't fit to all scenarios (not every card has it, but this does not mean it has another keyword). I think a rule is needed instead of a keyword.



#10 Moggle121

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 05:22 PM

yea unfortunately it is a very ambiguous character and needs an official rules clarification.

 

Any update on another FAQ update since its been a long time since the last one?



#11 Cynewulf

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 09:59 AM

i am afraid the only sensible thing to do is a complete and verbose inventory of all follower-killing effects which apply. They shouln't be that many.



#12 talismanamsilat

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 10:39 AM

I vote Velhart to do the list

Ell.



#13 EvilEdwin

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 10:58 PM

I think trying to create a definitive list is likely to cause enough problems in itself.

As an example take The Vampire's Tower, which allows you to discard followers instead of losing a Life. I'm sure many people would assume the Vampire simply kills them on the spot, but what if he turns them into mindless ghoul slave since he needs extra cleaning staff? What if he puts them away in his larder to eat later? The Follower hasn't actually been killed in those examples.

I think there are so many "what if" scenarios that could surround an effect which discards a Follower, that the only easy solution is to assume a Follower is killed if the effect specifically says "Killed", "Slain" or some other equally violent term. Or, to have a blanket effect and to allow the taking of all discarded followers, therefore making the Valkyrie potentially overpowered.

My feeling is that if FFG had intended the Valkyrie to be able to take all Followers then the word "Discard" would have been used instead of "Killed". Trying to create a list will only lead to arguments over individual Followers, which is fine on a public forum, but not so much fun during a game.

 



#14 The Wizard

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 01:35 AM

EvilEdwin said:

I think trying to create a definitive list is likely to cause enough problems in itself.

As an example take The Vampire's Tower, which allows you to discard followers instead of losing a Life. I'm sure many people would assume the Vampire simply kills them on the spot, but what if he turns them into mindless ghoul slave since he needs extra cleaning staff? What if he puts them away in his larder to eat later? The Follower hasn't actually been killed in those examples.

I think there are so many "what if" scenarios that could surround an effect which discards a Follower, that the only easy solution is to assume a Follower is killed if the effect specifically says "Killed", "Slain" or some other equally violent term. Or, to have a blanket effect and to allow the taking of all discarded followers, therefore making the Valkyrie potentially overpowered.

My feeling is that if FFG had intended the Valkyrie to be able to take all Followers then the word "Discard" would have been used instead of "Killed". Trying to create a list will only lead to arguments over individual Followers, which is fine on a public forum, but not so much fun during a game.

 

I totally agree with you on this one. We always play her as written on the card. So she is only allowed to take followers that has been killed by something, not sacrificed, discarded or in any other way. I think this is the right way to play with the character.

Regards.



#15 Cynewulf

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 10:27 PM

EvilEdwin said:

I think trying to create a definitive list is likely to cause enough problems in itself.

As an example take The Vampire's Tower, which allows you to discard followers instead of losing a Life. I'm sure many people would assume the Vampire simply kills them on the spot, but what if he turns them into mindless ghoul slave since he needs extra cleaning staff? What if he puts them away in his larder to eat later? The Follower hasn't actually been killed in those examples.

...

My feeling is that if FFG had intended the Valkyrie to be able to take all Followers then the word "Discard" would have been used instead of "Killed". Trying to create a list will only lead to arguments over individual Followers, which is fine on a public forum, but not so much fun during a game.

 

No argument if all players agree to stick to the list beforehand.

Of course the effects that qualify for "Valkyrie resurrection" would be a subset of those which are clearly indicated as killing. In fact, it would be a list of ALL effects that state killing minus those that create game breaking combos.

 



#16 Cruan

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 10:13 PM

Just a note about the Vampire Tower, in the rules theres a section about losing a follower, where it clearly says: when the follower is killed (e.g. chasm or vampire tower).. bla bla bla



#17 crimhead

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 10:33 PM

Cruan said:

Just a note about the Vampire Tower, in the rules theres a section about losing a follower, where it clearly says: when the follower is killed (e.g. chasm or vampire tower).. bla bla bla

I've recently noticed this too, hence my digging up this thread.  Two things are clear from this entry:

  1. Sometimes a follower dies without the keywords 'killed'. 'slain', etc.
  2. A follower can be discarded but not killed.

Basically we can't rely on the wording of the disposal of the follower - we need another criteria...

The_Warlock said:

Persiatic said:

As I said if the word discard is used then valkyries skill does not work how thematicly it even is

While we're waiting for a 100% clear and official rule, I figured out this way to handle things:

- Followers that are discarded in order to perform some effect CANNOT be taken by the Valkyrie (St. Josephine, Hieromartyr, Beastmaster and others)

- Followers discarded in any other way (killed, forcibly discarded, sacrificed to Vampire's Tower, Vampire Prince or other "Follower killers") are good for the Valkyrie to take.

This is a good place to start I think.

 



#18 Guest_Not In Sample_*

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 02:44 PM

thanks for the clarifications



#19 Zapranoth

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 03:25 AM

 If you use the criterion that the word "killed" must be present, it becomes a fairly weenie ability to have.   :P

But if you don't use exact wording it becomes impossible to adjudicate. For the example of the warhorse -- he is "discarded" per the wording on his card.  But in terms of roleplaying he probably is killed because you lost a life to lose him.

If this rule question could be cleaned up, that would help a lot.  Until then I ain't playing her.  :P



#20 Séamus Mór

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 10:53 AM

Resurrecting...

talismanamsilat said:

I vote Velhart to do the list

Ell.

I've voted myself to do the list

First of all, none of the 'temporary' Followers (Fiend Slayer, Horned Owl, Warhorse etc.) are killed when they are removed from the game - they are always discarded. I agree that this is as it should be. The only situations in which a Follower can be killed are listed below:

'KILLED' FOLLOWERS

Giant Beetle, Vampire Prince, Vampiric Dragon (if you lose); Cyclops (roll 1-2), Shrine Priest (your choice); Soul Drinker (roll doubles); Narrow Path, Chasm (roll 1-2); Defeating Gladiator or Magus.

If it's left at that, it certainly is a weenie ability. Once face-up, the Enemies aren't going to be visited by anyone who isn't confident of beating them. The Shrine Priest's Follower-killing is voluntary, and Soul Drinker's is obscure. For nearly all games, that only leaves the Narrow Path and Chasm, both of which I personally avoid like the plague. I can't see the Valkyire getting more than 2 or 3 Followers a game if the criterion is this strict.






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