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Newbie Question - Delayed investigators and Find Gate


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#1 snowedunder

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 08:13 AM

Hi Folks,

Can an investigator who is sucked through a gate (in the Mythos Phase) and delayed in the first section of Another World still cast Find Gate on his subsequent movement phase (thus avoiding any Other Word encounters)?

Cheers

Chris



#2 Frank

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 08:41 AM

As I understand it, you still get a Movement Phase (it's when you stop being Delayed). So yes. Find Gate doesn't require that you be able to do anything special during your Movement phase, it just requires that it be the movement phase when you exhaust it.

 

-Frank



#3 ColtsFan76

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 09:20 AM

I think I find myself in the minority here.  I say you do not get to use the Spell. 

Most people hang their hats on the "No Movement Points" argument and say as long as you aren't using Movement points (as is the case with this Spell) and I can buy that argument to a certain degree.  However, the rule as written says:

During the game, certain effects can cause an investigator to become delayed. When this occurs, place the investigator marker on its side, indicating the delay. Delayed investigators receive no movement points and do not move during the Movement Phase. Instead, during the investigator’s Movement Phase, the player stands the investigator marker back up to show that the investigator is no longer delayed. On the following turn, the investigator will be able to move once again as normal.

More than just losing movement points, you also lose movement.  But beyond just moving, it says "instead" of doing anything, stand your investigator up.  So I am of the opinion that the movement phase is skipped, with the exception of engaging monsters at the end of the phase, in its entirety.  This would include moving and using movement points, obviously, but also any spell that can be cast during the movement phase.  It doesn't make sense that you are delayed by something but still have the ability to cast spells - especially those that allow you to move.

The purpose of this rule is for you to, in essence, lose your turn, and be subject to another round of encounters in your current location.  You should not be able to do other things during your downtime, especially move elsewhere - the one thing the ruls is trying to prevent.

Just to be clear, combat happens at the end of the movement phase (if you haven't moved) and is a legitmate thematic reason for being delayed.  This still happens.  And since combat occurs, you can use combat spells.

 

 



#4 MrsGamura

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 08:42 PM

 So if you can't cast Find Gate while delayed you should not be able to cast if after using the White Ship.

If you can cast Find Gate while delayed you should be able to cast it after using the White Ship.



#5 Frank

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 09:07 PM

But Coltsfan, you quoted the rule. You stand up instead of receiving movement points or moving. You specifically have a movement phase while delayed. This is extremely open and shut. Receiving movement points to spend on getting about town or reading books is something you don't do. Moving to the second outworld area is something you don't do. But getting a movement phase is something that you do, so you can activate cards that are activated at that time. Then you're golden.

 

The White Ship is more complicated of a question because it is written vaguely. It says "instead of movement" rather than having a regular activation timeframe. That could mean:

  • Instead of physically moving your marker around - in which case you can still read books before you transport yourself to the Dreamlands and then you can cast Find Gate afterwards.
  • Instead of getting movement points - in which case you can't read books but can use Find Gate.
  • Instead of getting a Movement Phase - in which case you can't read books or use Find Gate.

Since there's no text to indicate which of those three is being discussed, people are welcome to differing opinions. But the delayed condition is different because it explicitly takes your movement points and not your phase. So books are out and Find Gate is in.

 

-Frank



#6 cim

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 11:30 PM

It seems a bit strange that someone could have a gate open on them in Mythos, and then immediately cast Find Gate to get back out again without having any OW encounters at all. Admittedly, Mark Harrigan could do this anyway, but that's their special power.



#7 Dam

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 01:02 AM

cim said:

It seems a bit strange that someone could have a gate open on them in Mythos, and then immediately cast Find Gate to get back out again without having any OW encounters at all. Admittedly, Mark Harrigan could do this anyway, but that's their special power.

Ha! I'll do you one better. Mentioned this before, but still worth mentioning for the weirdness of it:

Naacaal Key + Find Gate + Mark Harrigan (or Erich Weiss ally) = Open a gate of your choice during the movement phase at your location, enter, cast Find Gate and be ready to close/seal once the Arkham Encounter phase comes up  !

 

I allow FG during the movement phase that you stand up from delayed (or similar spells, Vision Quest if you were delayed in Arkham). If you don't allow FG, then I don't see why you should be allowed any spells, you're still in the movement phase, even if combat takes place at the end of the phase.


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#8 ColtsFan76

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 03:05 AM

Frank said:

But Coltsfan, you quoted the rule. You stand up instead of receiving movement points or moving. You specifically have a movement phase while delayed. This is extremely open and shut. Receiving movement points to spend on getting about town or reading books is something you don't do. Moving to the second outworld area is something you don't do. But getting a movement phase is something that you do, so you can activate cards that are activated at that time. Then you're golden.

I don't agree with this.  Your movement phase allows you to stand up, period.  There are 7 Movement Spells in the game.  I think all of them should be forbidden if you are delayed.  You are not allowed to move, but you can cast spells to allow you to move?  I don't buy it.



#9 AndrewClarke

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 04:49 AM

 I'm with the "does work" camp, going by the strictest interpretation of the rules, though I think for flavour reasons it would be better to rule the other way.

Nowhere in the description of the effect of being delayed is it stated that an investigator skips their movement phase, only that they get no movement points. Thus, any spell that can be cast in the movement phase can be cast even if delayed, even if it has the effect of moving the investigator. But an erratum/calrification might be a good idea.



#10 MrsGamura

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 10:06 AM

Frank said:

But Coltsfan, you quoted the rule. You stand up instead of receiving movement points or moving. You specifically have a movement phase while delayed. This is extremely open and shut. Receiving movement points to spend on getting about town or reading books is something you don't do. Moving to the second outworld area is something you don't do. But getting a movement phase is something that you do, so you can activate cards that are activated at that time. Then you're golden.

 

The White Ship is more complicated of a question because it is written vaguely. It says "instead of movement" rather than having a regular activation timeframe. That could mean:

  • Instead of physically moving your marker around - in which case you can still read books before you transport yourself to the Dreamlands and then you can cast Find Gate afterwards.
  • Instead of getting movement points - in which case you can't read books but can use Find Gate.
  • Instead of getting a Movement Phase - in which case you can't read books or use Find Gate.

Since there's no text to indicate which of those three is being discussed, people are welcome to differing opinions. But the delayed condition is different because it explicitly takes your movement points and not your phase. So books are out and Find Gate is in.

 

-Frank

Seems clear to me what you do using the White Ship replaces anything you could normally do during movement i.e. "instead of your normal movement" the Wagon is the same way.

So no tomes, spells cast during movement, etc



#11 MrsGamura

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 10:11 AM

ColtsFan76 said:

 

Frank said:

 

But Coltsfan, you quoted the rule. You stand up instead of receiving movement points or moving. You specifically have a movement phase while delayed. This is extremely open and shut. Receiving movement points to spend on getting about town or reading books is something you don't do. Moving to the second outworld area is something you don't do. But getting a movement phase is something that you do, so you can activate cards that are activated at that time. Then you're golden.

 

I don't agree with this.  Your movement phase allows you to stand up, period.  There are 7 Movement Spells in the game.  I think all of them should be forbidden if you are delayed.  You are not allowed to move, but you can cast spells to allow you to move?  I don't buy it.

 

 

You can still fight a monster while delayed. So does that mean you can't use anything against it because your delayed and your just a easy target for the monster?

Being delayed doesn't skip your movement you just can't move and receive 0 movement points.

If it was up to you delayed investigators could not trade/ fight monsters because all the could do is stand up!



#12 ColtsFan76

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 12:34 PM

MrsGamura said:

If it was up to you delayed investigators could not trade/ fight monsters because all the could do is stand up!

That's not what I said if you would like to take the time to read the thread before putting words in my mouth.



#13 AndrewClarke

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 10:15 PM

 The point is, fighting monsters and trading is part of the movement phase. So if the argument is that the white ship replaces the whole movement phase, then investigators couldn't fight or trade. Therefore it clearly doesn't do that.



#14 Turambar

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 11:32 PM

My two cents...

All rules seem to force characters to have at least one encounter while in the other worlds before returining to Arkham and obtaining the explorer marker. In an official FAQ, it's clearly written that an investigar falling into a gate as a consequence of an Arkham encounter is delayed for this reason: in case he/she is not delayed, investigators will spend one round less to complete the exploration of an external world. If an investigator is able to cast Find Gate and enters normally in an Other World, he should enter it in its movement phase (fighting eventually monsters protecting the gate) (and here the movement phase finishes), draw an encounter card in the Other World and in the following round, during the new movement phase, he can cast FG to return beck to Arkham (or move to the Other World second area in case he fails the spell casting roll). If the investigator falls through a gate in the encounter phase in Arkham, on the following round he has no movement in the Other World because (FAQ) otherwise he could travel through the Other World quicker than an investigator entering there normally. Thus no way to move and encounter. And in case a monster is drawn as result of the encounter, he has to fight it (but it's in the encounter phase, because it's a consequence of the card drawn), so I don't see how you can fight a monster in the movement phase while delayed in the Other world. After this, you are free, and so the following round you can move or cast FG or whatelse



#15 jhaelen

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 12:36 AM

I'm with Coltsfan76 about this one. I think it's clearly against the spirit of the rules to be able to enter and leave the other worlds without having a single encounter. If there are rules that may be interpreted differently, they should be clarified/errataed.



#16 ColtsFan76

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 02:35 AM

jhaelen said:

I'm with Coltsfan76 about this one. I think it's clearly against the spirit of the rules to be able to enter and leave the other worlds without having a single encounter. If there are rules that may be interpreted differently, they should be clarified/errataed.

And it goes beyond that.  I think it was mentioned but not fully explained that it is possible for a gate to open on some one in Turn 1 Phase 5 (Mythos).  They get delayed and sent to the OW.  Turn 2 Phase 2, they can stand up, thus undelaying themselves and then cast Find Gate.  They return to Arkham.  Turn 2, Phase 3, they can now close the gate.  In less than 1 turn, you can close a gate?  Based on an event that was meant to punish you?  That is definitely breaking the spirit of the game.  All other scenarios of the game have you spend at least 1 encounter in the OW before heading back, even with Find Gate.

Again, everyone focuses on the loss of Movement Points.  The rules clearly say you cannot Move either.  The rules also say instead of moving you stand up.   There are 7 movement spells in the entire game.  They almost all have to do with moving a character, moving a monster, or gaining movement points.  All of these should be tossed out when you are delayed.  You are being punished when you are delayed - you shouldn't be able to advance the game in your favor by casting these spells.

Combat is a distinct "subphase" - for lack of a better term - that can occur in Phase 2, 3, or 4.  Combat comes about when you move -or- at the end of the Movement phase.  In other words, when you no longer take any movement, combat is triggered.  Which is the case with being delayed - you are done moving.  For the most part, having to do battle - especially  if it is not by choice - should be considered a continuation of the punishment you receive as part of being delayed.

I am not advocating that the movement phase is skipped.  Clearly that is not the case.  Therefore, combat should still continue.  All I am saying is what the rules say on page 8.

  1. You do not get movement points (so Tomes are out), 
  2. You cannot move (so Spells that occur during Movement are out),
  3. All you can do during movement is stand up.

Once the "moving" portion of the Movement Phase is done, then combat continues if applicable.



#17 snowedunder

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 06:10 AM

Thematically I interpret being delayed as follows - a loss of ones bearings, being disoriented, needing to take time to establish your orientation. This fits whether the cause is being sucked through a gate which opened on top of you unexpectedly or waking up in a daze in hospital/asylum after a run with something nasty. Basically “Where the hell am I?! and what just happened?!”

From a rules point of view I think the key phrase is “Delayed investigators do not move during the Movement Phase, and they receive no movement points.” The logic of this statement implies that a delayed investigator still gets a movement phase. The actions within this movement phase are restricted to simply standing up i.e. standing up is thematically the equivalent of getting your bearings and establishing where you are.

Thus why should investigators not be able to do that activity of colleting themselves or figuring out their orientation, and then decide to cast a spell (such as find gate) or do any other activity that has a Movement Phase activation window.

I think this works thematically with the example I kicked this thread off with.

Mythos Phase IV - gate opens on Investigator, investigator sucked through to other world and delayed - “Where the hell am I”.

Movement Phase I (other world movement) - Investigator stands up (i.e. gets bearings) - “Oh God, I’m in the Abyss.” Time to cast find gate and high tale it outta here!

Spells like Find Gate are specifically meant to cut short The Other World experience. I.E. they are meant to break the minimum number of Other World encounters condition - even if brings the number of encounters down to zero.

That’s the one problem you get with games like AH. The mechanics rely on setting up a large number of conditions to govern the behaviour of the game and the players. The fun comes when you start introducing exceptions to the conditions or direct contradictions to the conditions. It allows you to play with the mechanics of the game in a fun way but a slight misstep can lead to irresistible force meets immovable object.



#18 ColtsFan76

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 07:26 AM

snowedunder said:

Spells like Find Gate are specifically meant to cut short The Other World experience. I.E. they are meant to break the minimum number of Other World encounters condition - even if brings the number of encounters down to zero.

I agree that Find Gate is specifcally meant to cut the duration you spend in the OW but I don't agree that it is meant to take you down to Zero.  (Not even the Naacal Key would work since it would delay you once a gate opens and put us back in our same predicament.)

Again, whether you want to chalk this up to theme or mechanics, the intent of Find Gate is to purposely go to an open gate in Phase 2, move through said gate in Phase 3 and have an encounter in Phase 4.  Then on Phase 2 of the next turn you return by casting the spell.  Mechanically, the intent is to have at least 1 encounter in the OW.  Thematically, you know what you are doing, you are aware of your surroundings and it still takes time to get back.

When you are allowed to use Find Gate in the illustration above - getting drawn through in Phase 5 - then you circumvent both the mechanical and thematic intents of the Spell.  Mechanically, you are saying that even though I have been punished and the normal usage of the spell is to spend at least 1 encounter in the OW, I don't have to do that now.  Thematically, I have no clue why I am here or how I got here but I know enough to get back and have enough knowledge of this place to even close the gate.

Neither of these arguments make any sense.  I would like this argument cleared up.  i have tried contacting kevin and JR about this ruling.  Unfortunately, they keep promising me to get to the open rule questions soon but haven't yet.  Now that Android is out and the holidays are closing down, perhaps we can get an answer from them soon.



#19 snowedunder

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 10:16 AM

ColtsFan76 said:

I agree that Find Gate is specifcally meant to cut the duration you spend in the OW but I don't agree that it is meant to take you down to Zero.  (Not even the Naacal Key would work since it would delay you once a gate opens and put us back in our same predicament.)

When you are allowed to use Find Gate in the illustration above - getting drawn through in Phase 5 - then you circumvent both the mechanical and thematic intents of the Spell.  Mechanically, you are saying that even though I have been punished and the normal usage of the spell is to spend at least 1 encounter in the OW, I don't have to do that now.  Thematically, I have no clue why I am here or how I got here but I know enough to get back and have enough knowledge of this place to even close the gate.

No one is saying Find Gate is "meant" to take you down to zero OW encounters.  Mearly that it reduces (or subtracts one to be precise) the number of OW encounters.  As a function of the rules and design of the card the "quirk" arises where if you are lucky enough to have the spell, lore and sanity to cast it at the right time you can get in and out of another world without encountering anything there.  A by product of introducing a condition breaking card without perhaps thinking about the full specturm of circumstance it may affect.  Maybe a quirk, maybe not really the full intent the designers meant, who knows, only KW or RL can answer.  But as it stands, its a damn good powerful spell and as luck plays a large part in AH, if a player ends up in those specific cirumstance I see no rule or ruling in publication to prevent him from playing the card.

As to the second point - You are making assumptions about the mechanic and thematic intent of the spell that can't be quantified.  As I don't have Kevin Wilson on the end of the phone, all I can go on is a logical appraisal of the rule book and a logical appraisal of the card text.  seems to fit to me. 

Normal usage of the spell is transport you back to Arkham whenever you play it - it has no fixed relationship to the specific number of OW encounters you face. 

Who says being delayed is a "punishment"?  Being delayed, being sucked through a gate during a mythos phase or any or the other many and myriad things that can happen to you during a game of AH can be construed as either a good or bad thing depending on the surrounding cirmumstance in the game. 

I already addressed my take on how the theme works in my last post, merely contradicting it doesn't make it invalid - standing up from being delayed represents figuring where you are, or gathering your wits, or whatever euphamism you care to use.  So you do have a clue as to where you are and you probably figured out how you got there and have sufficiant wit to cast a spell to get you back.

If there is another expansion and KW and Rl want to plug this hole they'll have to issue some replacement cards.  As it stands still nothing to convince me that using the card is thematically or mechanically wrong given the current rules.



#20 ColtsFan76

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 03:33 PM

snowedunder said:

Who says being delayed is a "punishment"?  Being delayed, being sucked through a gate during a mythos phase or any or the other many and myriad things that can happen to you during a game of AH can be construed as either a good or bad thing depending on the surrounding cirmumstance in the game. 

It is a punishment because time is of the essence in this game.  You have a limited amount of turns before you can win or send it into the Final Battle.  Any time you can't do what you want to do but be subjected to the same encounter is a problem.  Being delayed goes beyond just having a gate open on you.  It can also be the result of encounters and is a frequent one in the OW encounters.  I have lost many a game that was well in hand because a few ill-timed "you are delayed" cards popped up.

The only advantage of being delayed in the OW is if you somehow get transported there without a gate, or a gate closes while you are still out there.  Then a delay is welcome because it might mean getting a new gate open before getting sent to LiTaS.  And since the game is sentient, it doesn't allow this to happen when you really need it to.






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