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The Flaw In Limited Ammo Weapons Rule


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#1 Shooter

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Posted 17 November 2010 - 07:59 PM

This is a discussion I started to get into on another thread started by starkdad.  I don't want to derail his thread so I decided to start my own with respect to my viewpoint on this point. 

The rules state that limited ammo weapons like the panzerfaust or the under barrel grenade launchers are shared by the whole unit.  Therefore if the miniature carrying a panzerfaust for instance is removed (eliminated) than other members of the squad pick up the weapon and can use it.  The rule does not, however, apply to other weapons like rifles or flamethrowers, etc.  It is entirely possible to end up with one miniature who is carrying a rifle and three panzerfaust and could fire all four weapons in one round.  Anyone who has ever seen an actual panzerfaust knows that a single soldier isn't carrying three of the things at once.  Furthermore you can't make the argument that the soldier is carrying three warheads and one launcher.  The panzerfaust was a preloaded disposable weapon. You fired it and threw the launcher down and left it.  It was sort of the AT-4 or LAW of its day.  I understand the game isn't supposed to be super accurate.  I mean we are talking about a game where five guys standing around a tank trap represents that they are all in cover.  lol  But I also know that people are going to make the game as accurate as possible.  I'm keeping in mind that the rules were written for ages 13 and up and that a wide range of gamers with varying levels of experience are going to play the game.  For those who are in there mid-teens and new to gaming the rule is probably just fine.  However, for those of us who have been gaming for a long time I can understand why players will try to modify the game and make it more accurate.  The company has to make a sort of "one size fits all" when it comes to the rules, but individual players do not.  To me this is the single greatest advantage that tabletop board games and miniature games have over video games.  You can make these games whatever you want while with a video game you are locked into the program provided by the company.

Now the American Grenadiers squad is where it really gets tricky. You have four guys with M1 rifles and each rifle is equipped with an under barrel grenade launcher that fires one grenade.  The fifth squad member is carrying "only" an M9 bazooka.  So, if the four rifle carrying miniatures are eliminated, leaving just the bazooka man, by the rules, the bazooka man could fire his M9 bazooka and four grenades in a single round given that none of the UGL's had been used yet.  But here's the problem.  He can't fire an M1.  ???????  How does he fire the grenades without the M1?  The rifles are not a limited ammo weapon and by the rules therefore cannot be transferred from miniature to miniature.  The grenade launcher however is a limited ammo weapon.  You can't have one without the other.  In fact if the player wanted to get technical about it he could argue that the bazooka man is carrying 4 M1 rifles and the bazooka and could fire them all in 1 round given that you must have the rifle to fire the UGL.  Therefore, in theory, 1soldier could hold the firepower of the entire squad. Now I think most people will argue that the one soldier just takes the grenades from the other rifles and puts them on 1 rifle and carries that 1 rifle with him.  Ok, so he does, but that would still mean that he should get to fire both an M1 and the M9 bazooka each round even after all of the grenades have been used.  So long as there is even 1 grenade left unfired when the bazooka man becomes the last squad member then it seems to me that you have to transfer an M1 to that soldier.

This is why the group that I play with uses and in house rule that does not allow the transfer of limited ammo weapons between miniatures.  If you remove the two guys in your squad that are carrying the panzerfaust and you haven't fired them, you just lose them.  Similarly, if you lose 3 of the 4 Americans carrying M1's with UGL's and you haven't fired all four, you lose three shots. Even if you have fired a couple shots you could say that the last remaining rifleman has an unfired grenade.  But once you lose that last miniature you lose the grenade launcher capability regardless of whether or not he fired.  To sort of compensate for this, another rule that we have incorporated is the ammo crate rule.  If there are ammo crates on the board a squad with limited ammo supplies can use them to reload their fired shots.  This is how we do it.  The ammo crate is placed on the board standing on end.  If a squad moves into the same square with the ammo crate and wants to reload their limited ammo supply they can.  At that time the crate is laid on its side to denote that it has been used and can't be used again to reload another squad.  It's a one time deal.     



#2 Panzerfaust101

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Posted 17 November 2010 - 08:22 PM

Pg 20 of the rules

 

"However, you may not use more limited ammo weapons per round than the number of miniatures in your squad. "

 

1 guys left in a squad can fire 1 panzerfaust.



#3 Shooter

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Posted 17 November 2010 - 08:29 PM

Panzerfaust101 said:

 

Pg 20 of the rules

 

"However, you may not use more limited ammo weapons per round than the number of miniatures in your squad. "

 

1 guys left in a squad can fire 1 panzerfaust.

 

 

 

Ah, thanks Panzerfaust.  Still I can't see how a guy can fire the grenade launcher and not have the rifle that goes with it.   Also the unlimited ammo for the bazooka seems a little off as well.  I suppose you could say that the M9 is based on some alien tech and therefore the rounds are small and lightweight and therefore the guy can carry like fifty or sixty rounds.  No game is going to last that long so by default the rounds would be unlimited. 



#4 Guest_Not In Sample_*

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 02:23 AM

i reconcile the ammo for the bazooka as each bazooka gunner  carries 6 or 10 rounds . since i have never seen a game make it to 8 rounds , and many turns the bazooka isnt fired due to range or no LOS , it has more than enough for a single battle .

it would also not be unheard of to have one or even all the other fighters carry an extra round or 2 as spare ammo for a large cumbersome weapon .



#5 Dcal12

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 04:00 AM

I like the ammo resupply rule you have and will try that one out.  Don't think I will play the other house rule you came up with.  I don't have a problem with  units picking up the ammo of other units in their squad.  Now when we get snipers, then the attacker can pinpoint units to eliminate and those "limited weapons" are no longer available.

Turn 1 four units of a squad are eliminated leaving one unit to use the ammo of his squad mates.  Either A: he will be eliminated shortly (it is a bloody game) or B: he will pop off one UGL or one Panzerfaust a turn for the next few turns.   Don't think it is a big game changer.

 



#6 McFonz

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 12:47 PM

Can I just say that in most cases you wouldn't bother to pick up all of the weapons anyway.

For example if you have a Panzerfaust why pick up a Panzershreck? Please ignore my spelling if it is off, it's late!

As for the underslung stuff, again its a case of most of the models in that unit having one anyway, and the one that doesn't simply picks up the rifle with it on and slings it on using the strap.

The only flamethrower is the one in the shotgun unit so again, they are not picking up multiple weapons, just one more, and again why would you? The flamethrower is hands down the best option every time appart from when firing at a target unit of infantry that say, has 2-3 models left which means you still only get 1 attempt to hurt the enemy rather than overkill with more dice for the shotgun.



#7 Shooter

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 02:37 PM

McFonz said:

Can I just say that in most cases you wouldn't bother to pick up all of the weapons anyway.

For example if you have a Panzerfaust why pick up a Panzershreck? Please ignore my spelling if it is off, it's late!

 

I sort of felt the same way.  During combat when you're on the move and there are bullets flying are you really going to stop or go back and pick up the weapons from some fallen soldier?  Likely you would just end up another casualty.  Looking at it through that prisim is another reason why we don't use the sharing of limited ammo weapons.  That would be especially true on the under barrel grenade launcher stuff in which the soldier just wants the grenade not the rifle.  That means he's got to stop and take the time to unhook the grenade from the end of the rifle and all the while in the same spot where one soldier was already shot.  Not likely.  But we can "what if" it to pieces, the possibilites and speculation are endless and it's just a game.  We just prefer the no sharing of ammo rule because for us it makes the game more fun and more challenging. 

 

 






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