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Good-craftsmanship vs. Best-craftsmanship guns


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#1 Saibot

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 04:32 AM

Greetings!

According to RAW, the only difference between GCS guns and BCS guns is that GCS gives "Reliable" (if they do not possess it already) while BCS simply makes them Never Jam ever.

 

Now, mathematically, I do not feel that BCS is all that much superior to GCS and that there is no real incentive for players to get a BCS gun over a GCS gun (except for roleplaying purposes or when using plasma weaponry).

 

So I thought about giving BCS guns the same +1 to damage BCS melee weapons also enjoy, this would mirror the bonuses of Master-crafted weapons in DW.

 

What do you think?



#2 Kalec Fash

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 10:49 AM

Never jamming is pretty damn good, actually.

Besides, a flat damage boost would be a very poor benefit for best-craftmenship on guns because they do not all have the same rate of fire, unlike melee weapons. A flat damage boost benefits rapid-fire weapons greatly, and has practically no effect on high-damage single-shot weapons. It doesn't make sense.



#3 Saibot

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 11:10 AM

You raise a very good point.

 

Are there then any other ideas to buff BCS or do all agree Never Jam is a great enough boon as it is?



#4 HappyDaze

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 11:43 AM

Perhaps a bonus to Intimidate when brandishing the super-bling gun would be appropriate?


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#5 riplikash

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 01:55 PM

No chance of jamming is actually a fantastic bonus.

Beyond that I would opt for less concrete bonuses rather than a strait +10 to intimidate (which doesn't make that much sense anyways).

For my players the "blingier" they are the more respect they get from appropriate NPCs, though they may gain less respect from others.



#6 Kalec Fash

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 06:37 AM

Saibot said:

do all agree Never Jam is a great enough boon as it is?

This doesn't matter. What matters is what your group thinks.

If you want to give guns a bonus, you have two feasible options: accuracy boosts, and Tearing or something mechanically similar like re-rolling 1's for damage.



#7 riplikash

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 09:18 AM

Kalec Fash said:

Saibot said:

do all agree Never Jam is a great enough boon as it is?

 

This doesn't matter. What matters is what your group thinks.

If you want to give guns a bonus, you have two feasible options: accuracy boosts, and Tearing or something mechanically similar like re-rolling 1's for damage.

Eeehhh, I don't know that I would let my group decide how good a bonus is "good enough". Players rarely have an eye (or care) for balance and appropriate rewards. I think it wiser to go to other GMs and come to a consensus on what a "good enough" bonus is.



#8 Zereth

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 11:39 AM

How good it is would seem to depend on the gun. An Unreliable Overheats high-damage gun would clearly benefit more from being Best than one that's already Reliable.



#9 Gaire

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 12:37 PM

 In our group, we all agreed that damage boosts seem more like an ammunition bonus than a bonus from the gun itself, but that a better crafted ranged weapon would be more accurate, so good quality ranged get the +5 and best the +10, just like melee weapons.



#10 Voronesh

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 11:05 PM

I gravitate towards plasma. So never overheats is a great rule.

But when i look at a Bolter or Stormbolter, reliable is the big one. Never jams is just the tip of the iceberg. And generally not worth the extra -20.

A Long-las Sniper rifle pretty much doesnt even gain anything from craftmanship. Its already reliable, and how often are you going to jam anyway? You can only fire singleshot.

Plasma is already good at getting Best-craftmanship. Other guns, its from nice to have to whatever.

 

But that is my opinion.



#11 Lynata

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 08:53 AM

Gaire said:

In our group, we all agreed that damage boosts seem more like an ammunition bonus than a bonus from the gun itself, [...]

Very true - I already find it slightly irritating that damage is part of the weapon stats, not the ammunition. Of course this can, at time, be justified by different guns shooting different ammunition, but there are cases where we have complete compatibility, leaving it hard to explain where the difference in damage actually comes from...

 

I have a feeling that ranged weapons could use some more qualities to differentiate each other rather than just relying on "unique" damage. Whilst accuracy would be one option, it's already covered by the "Accurate" quality from true sniper weapons - though how about a smaller bonus such as +2/+4? Yes, it is neglectable, but keep in mind you'd get this in addition to the other stuff and it is still useful to have. Also, what exactly are the differences between an off-the-mill gun and a mastercrafted model in terms of realism? They are just not that big and would mostly have a social effect.

If you really want to create a mechanic around that: How about some sort of "style points" and "Fellowship bonus level" that gives you +10 or (in extreme cases) +20 on Fellowship rolls whenever your equipment and clothing reaches a certain value? Sometimes it is all about the appearance! :P


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#12 Voronesh

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 09:36 AM

Length of the barrel.

 

Nah seriously. This only applies to rifles vs pistols or sniper rifles. But beyond that, not much.



#13 Lynata

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 11:05 AM

Yeah, I was considering that for a moment, but then thought it just wouldn't make that much of a difference that it would show in the stats (apart from what you mentioned). Same about smoothbore/rifling (primarily about accuracy, but has a small effect on projectile speed, too).

And then we'd still have bolt weapons or missile launchers where it just doesn't matter how their rounds were fired because the ammunition has its own rocket motor...


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#14 Umbranus

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 12:02 AM

I think a bonus that could be added to best craftsmanship ranged weapons would be to change the auto-miss chance.
As far as I understood any roll that would normaly result in a jam is still a miss even if the relevant BS including bonus is higher.
So why not increase that value by 1 for best craftsmanship (or perhaps 2, but that could be too much.)



#15 NGL

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 01:01 AM

Umbranus said:

I think a bonus that could be added to best craftsmanship ranged weapons would be to change the auto-miss chance.
As far as I understood any roll that would normaly result in a jam is still a miss even if the relevant BS including bonus is higher.
So why not increase that value by 1 for best craftsmanship (or perhaps 2, but that could be too much.)

I think reducing the built in failure rate is a bad idea.

Putting the best gun in an unskilled hand at best would only increase the chance of success not decrease the chance of failure.

As mentioned earlier if you want to give a bonus other than never jams/overheats which is admittedly an awesome quality it should make some sense without being overpowering with increasing rates of fire (I actually don't like the semi-auto firing rules).

A stock BS bonus is the best way of doing it.  A BS bonus can explain any number of things including lower recoil, improved sights, or a stronger machine spirit.

Take your pick.

While I am not an advocate of changing this particular rule and I understand the debate in the value of upgrading from reliable to best; especially when it means upgrading quality by two steps from common.  I am not sure stepping outside the bounds of what a weapon is actually capable of is the way to go.

If it was a best quality automated turrent lowing the failure rate as described would makes sense, but in "human" hands it does not.  Unless of course they have a talent that lowers there failure rate (representing their superior skills with a group of weapons).



#16 Macharias the Mendicant

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 10:41 PM

I don't think the rule needs to be changed, but if you want to do a little extra for Best Craftsmanship, why not allow a player to have the "Custom" quality? I don't see any guns that have it anyway and no cost to add it as an "upgrade." 

Or, allow the player to 'tweek' his/her gun in approriate ways if the regular benefit is not as interesting: 10% (or more) extra 'clip size' for Las weapons (which already have reliable for example) to represent the greater energy efficiency of the weapon, or maybe a +1 Pen. 

The option of re-rolling '1s' for damage is an interesting one, but maybe restrict it to "rerolling any "1: for damage once per session or something.

I wouldn't increade BS because unless melee weapons, there ARE upgrades that improve BS for missile weapons and granting more bonuses might have an unbalancing effect. Instead, you might decide that a Best-Craftsmanship Weapon has a built-in red-dot laser sight or motion predictor which does not count against the usual limit.

My group tends to be pretty good with game balance issues, so if you're in the same situation, you would always ask them what they want. Worse case, you try it with the proviso that you'll have to re-evaluate after a session or two. Speaking as a player, a little something which is original or unique tends to interest me more than more power.

looking forward to hearing other suggestions.



#17 Voronesh

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 12:42 AM

Purely evaluated from a rules perspective:

I think a big part of the  problem stems from the fact that reliable is already a really, really good boost. If firing with full auto (maximum jam chance), you have a 7% jam chance. Reliable already reduces that down to 0.7%.

That means if you are a VERY, VERY combat heavy group, you would jam once every 150 full turns of full auto shooting. You can jam twice in a row ofc, but what are the chances of that happening.... Give me some reason to upgrade from reliable to never jams.

Unreliable weapons really gan very little from losing unreliable, since it only goes down from 10% to 7% (4% in case of sigle shot weapons), but still a very good choice, although buying a best quality upgrade is a huge difference. You go from once every 10 shots to never. Yes lets buy best quality weapons.

Overheating weapons (AKA anything plasma) also really like best quality weapons, although good quality does absolutely nothing for the weapon, since they never jam. I do not understand the Plasma cannon though. Unrealiable makes it jam on 91+, which turns into overheating because of the overheating rule, but overheats already lets you overheat on 91+. Since it doesnt matter, who cares.

Basically only weapons with the unreliable trait or weapons with the overheating trait truly benefit from being best quality. If you are using a Melta/Flamer/Las/SP type weapon, youre out of luck. It is nice to upgrade, but you dont really have to. At least not because the mathematics involved.

Allowing a boost to BS, id be against that, since motion predictor, plus Full auto, plus short range already add up to +40. Arch militants using MIUs are at +60 in most cases.

Increasing range: Yes why not, it will only matter for warmongering parties, or snipers but it does give you a nice upgrade that doesnt really change anything about the weapon. When will you break out a battlemat or calculate how long the orks must charge, giving you mroe time to shoot them. If these problems plague you, this is a good upgrade.

Increasing damage and/or Penetration: Really works as well, anything that drives people away from simply giving every player char a best quality plasma weapon is good in my book. I want to see bolt weapons, or hellguns being used as well. No need to make a bolter that much better, but what about giving it 1-3 penetration extra. 40k physics should allow that (and a marginally longer bolter as well).

And responding to the rerolling 1's. I really like that idea as well, less faulty ammo in case of bolters, or degrading gas flasks for plasma weaponry. Why not? But once per gaming session? If you have 5 turns of combat every gaming session, this is a huge upgrade. If you are in the middle of a warzone and the GM has you on the edge of your toes (ammo is running out/ monsters at every corner etc.) this is a really weak upgrade. Id change to once per combat encounter at least, since that should give out a more consistent boost, regardless of group. Warmongers and intrigue characters alike should be able to milk a bonus.

Shortening reload time: Also an option, a mastercrafted bolter simply drops a spent clip automatically, you only have to slam in a new clip. This could even have funny scenes, where a PC wants to threaten an enemy with a truly empty weapon.



#18 Errant

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 12:10 AM

Courtesy of http://darktrader.wi....com/equipment:

Craftsmanship Modifications - Weapons and Armor
Good Craftsmanship
Weapons, Armour, and Items of Good Craftsmanship tend to have distinctive branding names called their Pattern.
The Pattern Name is usually derived from either where the item is manufactured (Mars, Lathe, Armageddon), the manufacturer (Hax-Orthotic, Sollex, Belosco), or named after the one who discovered the STC or successfully petitioned the Temples of Mars to sanction alterations to an already consecrated pattern.

*Items: Boost their characteristic bonus by +5 or some other minor boost in performance and reliability. Not all items will need to follow the naming conventions
*Weapons: Choose one new Downgrade Trait from the Downgrade Traits List. Likewise, one Upgrade may be selected from the Upgrade Traits list.
*Armour: Increases it's AP by one for the first hit taken each round.
*Servants and Services: Reliable and will make all service related tests against a Characteristic of 40 higher.

Best Quality
Best Quality items, Armour, and Weapons not only follow the naming convention of the Good Quality versions but they must also receive a Unique Name which they had been given at some point in time during their long and luminous service. The player must also create it's back-story explaining what makes it such a magnificent item.

*Items: Boost their characteristic bonus by +10 or, generally see a marked over-all improvement in performance.
*Weapons: One new Upgrade trait may be taken. In addition the option to choose one Downgrade Trait from the Downgrade Traits List with a second Upgrade selected from the Upgrade Traits list is available.
*Armour: Only weigh Half as much as it normally should and it's AP would be permanently raised by 1.
*Servants and Services: The best money can buy All Characteristic Tests in performance of their duties are used against a characteristic of 50.

UPGRADE TRAITS:MELEE
__

•Accurate: +10 to hit on Aimed shot, +1d10 damage for every 2DOS
•Balanced: +10 to parry
•Combi: Combines another different weapon with the original
•Concussive: The weapon causes a barrage of sound and force upon impact. When you strike an opponent with a Concussive weapon, he must make a Toughness Test at a Difficulty of –10 per degree of success by which the attack succeeded or be Stunned for 1 Round. Auditory protection confers a +10 bonus to this Test, but does not negate the kinetic energy of the blast. Additionally, any target taking Damage greater than his Strength Bonus from a Concussive weapon is automatically knocked down
•Customisable: Weapon may take any upgrades as long as purchased for it
•Deadly: Base Damage is increased by 2
•Defensive: +15 to parry / -10WS to attack
•Flexible: Cannot be parried
•Felling (x): Designed to puncture and to mangle, this weapon is capable of toppling even the mightiest foes. If the weapon hits, it ignores a number of levels of Unnatural Toughness possessed by the target equal to the number in parenthesis. For instance, a Felling (1) weapon ignores the benefits of Unnatural Toughness (x2) and would reduce the benefits of Unnatural Toughness (x3) by one multiplier
•Fast: -20 to enemy to parry or dodge
•Gene-Locked: Weapon will only function in it's owners hand
•Lightweight: Weapon weight is halved
•Powerful: Base Pen is increased by 2
•Power Field: When used to Parry has a 75% chance to destroy opponents weapon
•Razor Shap: The shearing edge of this weapon can glide through the most advanced armour as though it were primitive tin. When rolling to attack with this weapon, if the attack roll results in two or more Degrees of Success, double the weapon’s Penetration.
•Shocking: Weapon can stun opponent
•Snare: If used no damage is caused. On a successful hit opponent makes an Agi test or is immobilised. Str/Agi test at beginning of round in order to burst free or is considered helpless.
•Tearing: Weapon gains the Tearing quality
•Toxic: Weapon gains the Toxic quality
•Twin-Linked: Full Action Single attack, Every 2DoS = One extra Hit, +20WS
•Work of Art: +10 to Fel tests, Appears Ceremonial in nature

UPGRADE TRAITS:BALLISTIC

•Accurate: +10 to hit on Aimed shot, +1d10 damage for every 2DOS
•Combi: Combines another different weapon with the original
•Compact: Halves weight, clip, range, -20 to discover when hidden
•Concussive: The weapon causes a barrage of sound and force upon impact. When you strike an opponent with a Concussive weapon, he must make a Toughness Test at a Difficulty of –10 per degree of success by which the attack succeeded or be Stunned for 1 Round. Auditory protection confers a +10 bonus to this Test, but does not negate the kinetic energy of the blast. Additionally, any target taking Damage greater than his Strength Bonus from a Concussive weapon is automatically knocked down
•Customised: Halves reload time
•Customisable: Weapon may take any upgrades as long as purchased for it
•Deadly: Base Damage is increased by 2
•Extended Clip: Ammo capacity raised by 50%
•Far Reaching: Range is increased by 50%
•Felling (x): Designed to puncture and to mangle, this weapon is capable of toppling even the mightiest foes. If the weapon hits, it ignores a number of levels of Unnatural Toughness possessed by the target equal to the number in parenthesis. For instance, a Felling (1) weapon ignores the benefits of Unnatural Toughness (x2) and would reduce the benefits of Unnatural Toughness (x3) by one multiplier
•Gene-Locked: Weapon will only function in it's owners hand
•Lightweight: Weapon weight is halved
•Powerful: Base Pen is increased by 2
•Razor Shap: The shearing edge of this weapon can glide through the most advanced armour as though it were primitive tin. When rolling to attack with this weapon, if the attack roll results in two or more Degrees of Success, double the weapon’s Penetration.
•Reliable: Based on tried and true technology, Reliable weapons seldom fail. If a Reliable weapon Jams, roll 1d10 and only on a roll of 10 has it in fact Jammed. Otherwise, it just misses as normal
•Scatter: The standard ammunition of these weapons spreads out when fired, hitting more of the target. If fired at a foe within Point Blank Range, every two degrees of success indicates another hit. However, at longer ranges this spread of small projectiles reduces its effectiveness. Double all Armour Points against hits from Scatter weapons at Long or Extreme Range.
•Well Machined: Treat Jams as misses
•Recharge: Weapon can only attack every other round
•Scatter: Weapon gains the Scatter quality
•Shocking: Shocking weapons can stun their opponents with a powerful surge of energy. A target that takes at least 1 point of Damage from a Shocking weapon after Armour and Toughness Bonus must make a Toughness Test. He receives a +10 bonus for every Armour Point on the location hit. If he fails, he is Stunned for a number of Rounds equal to half the Damage he suffered.
•Storm: Weapon gains the Storm quality (double hits for for every normal hit)
•Tearing: Weapon gains the Tearing quality
•Toxic: Weapon gains the Toxic quality
•Twin-Linked: Weight doubled, Uses Double Ammuntion, Double Reload, 2DOS = One additional hit, +20BS
•Volatile: Volatile matter is charged with potential energy, and reacts violently on a solid hit. If a 10 is rolled for Damage on a weapon with the Volatile Quality, Righteous Fury occurs
automatically, dealing another 1d10 points of Damage. If the second roll results in 10, further Damage is possible (see Righteous Fury).
•Work of Art: +10 to Fel tests / Appears Ceremonial in nature

DOWNGRADE TRAITS:MELEE

•Defensive: +15 to parry / -10WS to attack
•Inaccurate: Weapon gains no bonus for the aim action
•Low Damage: Weapon suffers a -2 to dmg
•Primitive: Modern armour's AP counts as double against it
•Unbalanced: Weapon suffers a -10 to parry.
•Unwieldy: Weapon cannot be used to parry
•Heavy: Double Weight, Weapon requires Strength bonus of 4+ to use without a -10 penalty
•Slow: Weapon may not be used with Swift Attack or Lightning Attack
•Two-Handed: Weapon must be used Two-Handed

DOWNGRADE TRAITS:BALLISTIC
•Complex: Doubles reload time
•Inaccurate: Weapon gains no bonus for the aim action
•Low Damage: Weapon suffers a -2 to dmg
•Overheats: Overheats on an attack roll of 95+
•Primitive: Modern armour's AP counts as double against it
•Recharge: Weapon can only fire every other round.
•Small Capacity: Weapons ammo capacity is reduced by half
•Unreliable: Weapon Jams on 91 or higher.
•Unstable: Weapon gains the Unstable trait (Every hit roll a d10, 1-=1/2 Dam, 5-9=Normal Dam, 10=Double Dam)

Rules
(1) You cannot take opposites ( ie taking the Deadly trait AND the Low Damage trait ) since these would cancel each other out and be a waste of time
(2) You cannot take more than 3 Total downgrades/upgrades for a BQ weapon. The limits are worded precisely for a reason.
(3) Each upgrade you take will increase both the cost AND difficulty of making/modifying or finding someone who can do so for the weapon in question
(4) For simplicity sake when modifying an existing weapon you are granted (free of charge) the weapons base traits ( such as accurate for a long las) that do not count towards the total modifications you want to make…these listed with the weapon are a part of its basic design ( unless you wanted to remove them)



#19 Lynata

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 02:09 AM

That list contains some awesome ideas! I'll have to take some notes here...

(shouldn't Defensive be just an Upgrade and not a Downgrade, though? despite that it comes with an inherent drawback)


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#20 Errant

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 03:22 AM

I'd think that the negatives and positives of the Defensive trait balance each other out either way, really. In some ways it's a downgrade, while in others it's a bonus.






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