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Shooting into HtH with hordes


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#1 Charmander

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 10:04 AM

I can't seem to find any rules regarding how one would shoot at a horde that was engaged in hand to hand combat.  Say you have a horde magnitude 40, you have 40-50 cultists in the horde.   One marine gets engaged in close combat on the edge of the horde.  The devestator still wants to help clear the horde out, so he opens fire full auto into the mess of 50 people.  Now, not ALL 50 people are attacking the one marine in close combat, so there are going to be some just hanging about.

Does the devestator still suffer the -20 to shoot into hand to hand if over half the horde is not engaged?  Does it depend on horde size?  And does the remainder of the horde get to shoot as well as beat people in close combat?  Maybe use the 10s diget of the horde's magnitude to determine how many people have to be engaged for the horde to be considered 'pinned' in close combat (so a magnitude 25 horde could be shot at and shoot as a magnitude 10 horde if ONE SM was in close combat, but if TWO sms were in close combat it could not shoot, but SMs outside of CC would suffer -20 to hit?  <rant>  Then that bears the question, why does shooting a bolter on full auto increase your chances of NOT hitting your friend who is covered with enemies </rant>?)

A page pointer would be most helpful, or your opinions on the matter.



#2 Cifer

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 11:02 AM

 Assuming you haven't got a horde yourself that's doing the engaging, I don't think a horde should ever be considered in melee for purpose of being fired upon. For firing itself, that probably depends on the type of horde - 'nids wouldn't have too much of a problem continuing to shoot while an assault marine chews through their compatriots while more human opponents might prefer readying themselves for close combat.

 

Then that bears the question, why does shooting a bolter on full auto increase your chances of NOT hitting your friend who is covered with enemies

Someone didn't read the Fire Into Melee rules carefully enough: It actually works the other way around.  Once you've got enough bullets to go around, one of them has to be assigned to everyone taking part in the melee.



#3 Charmander

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 05:59 PM

Something feels right about not considering the mob engaged in melee if it's big enough, but if it's a 10/20/30 size horde, a couple of space marines wading through with chainswords seems like they would make shooting the horde difficult.  Large hordes or lower numbers of marines it makes sense to me (as you just shoot at the part of the horde that's not engaged), and for simplicity that may be the best way to go, but smaller hordes or high number of marines it makes less and less sense.

And as for the shooting into melee rules, you're probably right- the only text I can find says "BS tests made to hit a target engaged in melee combat are Hard (-20)."  The rules for semi/full auto bursts just say you get a +10 or +20 bonus to hit, and bonus degrees of success mean you hit them more (for every 1 or 2 degrees depending).  Then it goes on to say those hits can be allocated ot the original target or any target within two metres, but doesn't say it does for certain (or you could never hit a single target more than once with auto fire, which goes against the existence of the 'what body part do they hit next' chart).  I can't find anything regarding allocating hits to a group, and then requiring one of those hits to be at your ally.  My point of contention/rant is totally based on that- with full auto you get a +20 to hit, and the penalty for shooting into melee is -20, so they essentially negate each other which would be as effective as taking a full round to aim your next shot.  Suppressing fire, on the other hand, hits friends and foes based on GM discretion (and you can bet I'd cause a few hits to hit the allies).  Do you have an example or page number of where I'm missing things?



#4 Einbauschrank

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 09:03 PM

I would apply the -20 modifier as you still get the horde magnitude bonus from ~+30-60, which nets at least +10.  By not shooting into the general area where your battle-brother is dishing it out you restrict yourself and should be penalized.



#5 Cifer

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 12:28 AM

 @Charmander

Something feels right about not considering the mob engaged in melee if it's big enough, but if it's a 10/20/30 size horde, a couple of space marines wading through with chainswords seems like they would make shooting the horde difficult. Large hordes or lower numbers of marines it makes sense to me (as you just shoot at the part of the horde that's not engaged), and for simplicity that may be the best way to go, but smaller hordes or high number of marines it makes less and less sense.

Consider this: In Dark Heresy, where there are no horde rules, you'd be able to fire upon any enemy not personally engaged in melee.  Only exceptionally small (meaning magnitude 20 and lower while being made up of relatively elite enemies like stormtroopers or firewarriors rather than cultists that can be presumed to have three or more people per magnitude point) hordes could be effectively tied up in melee with two or three marines.

 

Do you have an example or page number of where I'm missing things?

Yup. That would be page 248, the box titled Stray Shots.

 

 

 



#6 sayles78

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 01:08 AM

Einbauschrank said:

I would apply the -20 modifier as you still get the horde magnitude bonus from ~+30-60, which nets at least +10.  By not shooting into the general area where your battle-brother is dishing it out you restrict yourself and should be penalized.

 

This ^

 

I'm happy with that explanation.



#7 Charmander

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 06:14 AM

Cifer said:

would be page 248, the box titled Stray Shots. 

Goddamn sidebars.  I think I'll be implementing this one come the weekend- thanks for the pointer!






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