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Chapter specific Squad Mode abilities


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#1 Stevetassie

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 04:44 AM

On page 219 it says that only members of a particular home chapter (Blood Angels, Ultramarines, etc.) gain the benefits when a Battle-Brother activates a Chapter specific squad mode power, but in reading the descriptions of those powers, they all say things like "all battle-brothers in support range." So which is the case?

Considering the limited likelihood of multiple squad members being from the same home chapter, doesn't making chapter specific squad abilities only effect chapter brothers render them pretty pointless?



#2 Little Dave

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 05:04 AM

You have the tactical marines choice of ability which allows them to grant chapter squad abilities with a command test



#3 KommissarK

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 05:57 AM

Well remember, they still effect the one marine that is of that chapter, and they are fairly good (consider the DA overwatch sustained, or the BT's keep making attacks up to your AB).

Probably the other big problem though, is only the squad leaders chapter abilities are available to the squad (p. 228, last sentance of oath taking).

 

But yes, tac marines make this better.



#4 Leardinal

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 01:05 PM

It does seem pointless without the Tac marine as the leader, which makes the Chapter specific squad mode abilities seem more like solo mode abilities that happen to extended to other battle brothers if they are from your same chapter.  The entire section starting from the descriptions to oath taking seems to be a contradiction.  I think the problem boils down to a couple of points, which are stated in the previous posts but I thought it might be a good idea to compile them into one:

1) The rules explaining them seem to make it seem like the abilities will only effect one or two members most of the time (unless the party is only tac marines who all chose "tactical Expertise," because the book itself encourages you to have someone new being squad leader each time,) which seems to be the opposite of what squad mode abilities should do. (pg. 219)

2) The Descriptions seem to indicate that all kill-team members in range gain the ability, or it at least assumes you will add in the restrictions from reading the above referenced rule. (pg. 222 and 224)

3) In the oaths section, it says that the Squad gains access to the chapter squad mode abilities of its leader, which, (maybe just to me,) sounds like the entire squad can use and/or benefit from the squad leaders chapter abilities or can use their own chapter abilities even if they are not the leader. (pg. 228)

 

Any clarification of the points would be greatly appreciated..



#5 KommissarK

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 02:43 PM

Remember, the squad leader is not the only member that is able to activate abilities.

Each character can only be under the influence of one squad mode ability, but may switch them somewhat freely (unless they are the iniatior of the ability, causing its effect to be lost).

The pool of squad mode abilities = the powers available from the oath taken + the chapter abilities of the squad leader.

Only marines of the chapter may activate a squad mode ability of that chapter.

Tac marines may make a command check to allow their specific use of a chapter squad mode ability to affect the members of other chapters.

Each battle brother projects a support range. Any other battle brother that is operating in squad mode, and is within that support range, may choose to use the benefits of the power.

 

Probably the key thing here, is that my reading states that only the chapter powers of the squad leader may be used. If a BT is squad leader, a DA member cannot activate his squad mode power (even if to just affect himself).



#6 Radomo

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 03:55 PM

KommissarK said:

Probably the key thing here, is that my reading states that only the chapter powers of the squad leader may be used. If a BT is squad leader, a DA member cannot activate his squad mode power (even if to just affect himself).

I think you're right here (I actually came here to ask this very question).  Per RAW, it seems only the leader's Chapter Squad abilities can be used.  That does mean you are very limited in choice, once the leader is assigned.  And, unfortunately, it means that most Squad mode abilities will not be used.

 

I guess that does mean that my kill team will have 2 more Cohesion when I'm not the leader.  Sustained Suppression + Suspensor + Heavy Bolter + Unrelenting Devastation = minced hordes x2 per round.  hehe.



#7 Stevetassie

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 01:58 AM

KommissarK said:

Remember, the squad leader is not the only member that is able to activate abilities.

Each character can only be under the influence of one squad mode ability, but may switch them somewhat freely (unless they are the iniatior of the ability, causing its effect to be lost).

The pool of squad mode abilities = the powers available from the oath taken + the chapter abilities of the squad leader.

Only marines of the chapter may activate a squad mode ability of that chapter.

Tac marines may make a command check to allow their specific use of a chapter squad mode ability to affect the members of other chapters.

Each battle brother projects a support range. Any other battle brother that is operating in squad mode, and is within that support range, may choose to use the benefits of the power.

 

Probably the key thing here, is that my reading states that only the chapter powers of the squad leader may be used. If a BT is squad leader, a DA member cannot activate his squad mode power (even if to just affect himself).

It sounds like you're saying any battle-brother in support range can gain the benefit of an activated chapter specific ability but only a member of the chaper may ACTIVATE a chap-specific ability, but that is contradicted by the rule book in at least two places. Have I misunderstood what you're saying or are you suggesting an alternate interpretation of the rules?



#8 Cifer

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 05:01 AM

 I believe it was explained that the chapter-specific stuff was changed in editing - in earlier drafts, only the squad leader could access his chapter abilities, but those affected everyone. Now, it seems the other way around: everyone can access their chapter-specifics, but only a Tactical Marine can let his squad mates benefit from them.

Which is kinda sad as it often makes the Tactical marines the only good choice for leadership unless you absolutely, positively need a certain oath.



#9 KommissarK

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 06:20 AM

Cifer said:

 I believe it was explained that the chapter-specific stuff was changed in editing - in earlier drafts, only the squad leader could access his chapter abilities, but those affected everyone. Now, it seems the other way around: everyone can access their chapter-specifics, but only a Tactical Marine can let his squad mates benefit from them.

Which is kinda sad as it often makes the Tactical marines the only good choice for leadership unless you absolutely, positively need a certain oath.

I'm kinda split on this reading. In my games, I probably will allow each member to access their own chapter power (despite a strict reading of the last sentance of oath-taking on p. 228), so basically:

Squad mode abilities available = abilities from oath + individual chapter's ability

This makes tac marines nice, but a DA devastator still doesn't feel that his ability is left out. Of course, with the increased difference in what is available, it becomes important that cohesion should be spent with the agreement of the group.

Overall, I don't think it breaks things too much. Often the abilities are expensive, so that large of a cohesion hit for an ability that may only benefit one character will probably mean it is not used (unless explicitly useful). Ultramarines will become nice (what with their defensive ability).

Because remember, as long as the players are being challenged, there really isn't an issue with this. The real trick/balance is getting the cohesion right.

 

Also, at the question as to if I was stating that anyone can benefit from chapter specific squad powers: no, I was not (note that I mentioned the usefulness of the tac marines ability)






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