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Ammo Capacities / Special Ammo / Clip Size Points Cost... Related Questions!!!


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#1 sayles78

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 03:34 AM

 Hi,

As the title suggests - a number of questions re the above:

 

1) Heavy Bolters have to pay 5 extra Req Points for Special Ammo per clip because of the higher clip capacity. Now, I assume when purchased for a Hvy Bolter, special ammo is not put into the ammo backpack (250 shots), but is put into the standard clip (60 shots). Is this correct? If it is installed into the back pack - it should cost a lot more than 5pts per clip extra!

2) If above assumption is correct, how do you switch between the Heavy Bolter's own clip of 60, and the back pack supply of 250?

3) Also, if the special ammo costs 5pts more for Heavy Bolters due to higher clip capacity, surely it should also cost more for Storm Bolters - as the clip capacity is the same (60 shots)?

4) The Storm Bolter mentions it uses Twin-clips to supply it's dual firing mechanism. What does this mean? Is it just fluff, or is it referring to the fact that you need to purchase 2 clips of any ammo type to load it with it's 60 shots? In which case, the ammo should not cost 5pts more per clip as with Hvy Bolter, but would require 2 clips per full reload.

5) Not really a question..... It does say a Fire Selector can be used on any Basic Bolt weapon - which obviously includes Storm Bolters. I have a problem with this... I just cant see a Storm Bolter with 3 of those massive magazines attached to it! Also, if it uses Twin-clips, then a fire selector for a Storm Bolter actually holds 6 clips - not 3. I think the Storm Bolter is good enough (maybe too good) without having 3 different types of 60 shot capacity ammo attached to it!

 

Your thoughts???



#2 Radomo

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 07:46 AM

 Well, the Godwyn bolter says it comes with a "shot" selector by default (possibly this is not the same as a fire selector), but does not list a magazine capacity of 28 (x3).  I agree that, with the size of bolt ammunition and hence magazines, fire selectors don't seem to make sense.  Contrary to the RAW and since I don't recall seeing anything to indicate multiple magazines for bolters, I would disallow fire selectors on bolt weapons in my game.

 

Per your Storm bolter question, I believe you would requisition two separate magazines for a storm bolter, but they must contain the same ammunition type.



#3 darkrose50

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 08:30 AM

sayles78 said:

1) Heavy Bolters have to pay 5 extra Req Points for Special Ammo per clip because of the higher clip capacity. Now, I assume when purchased for a Hvy Bolter, special ammo is not put into the ammo backpack (250 shots), but is put into the standard clip (60 shots). Is this correct? If it is installed into the back pack - it should cost a lot more than 5pts per clip extra!
2) If above assumption is correct, how do you switch between the Heavy Bolter's own clip of 60, and the back pack supply of 250?
3) Also, if the special ammo costs 5pts more for Heavy Bolters due to higher clip capacity, surely it should also cost more for Storm Bolters - as the clip capacity is the same (60 shots)?
4) The Storm Bolter mentions it uses Twin-clips to supply it's dual firing mechanism. What does this mean? Is it just fluff, or is it referring to the fact that you need to purchase 2 clips of any ammo type to load it with it's 60 shots? In which case, the ammo should not cost 5pts more per clip as with Hvy Bolter, but would require 2 clips per full reload.
5) Not really a question..... It does say a Fire Selector can be used on any Basic Bolt weapon - which obviously includes Storm Bolters. I have a problem with this... I just cant see a Storm Bolter with 3 of those massive magazines attached to it! Also, if it uses Twin-clips, then a fire selector for a Storm Bolter actually holds 6 clips - not 3. I think the Storm Bolter is good enough (maybe too good) without having 3 different types of 60 shot capacity ammo attached to it!
 

 

1) I would rule that the 5-points of extra requisition for special ammo comes in 60-shot clips.
2) I would rule that on the backpack ammo supply there is a flexible metal feeder (looks like a metal strap) surrounding the belt-fed ammo. I would then rule that one could change between the backpack ammo and clip ammo as if they were taking an action loading the weapon.
3) I would rule that 5-points of extra requisition for special ammo for storm bolters would be acceptable.
4) This would also be an option, however I would rule that the spirit of the requisition system entails charging more points for unusual requests. Requesting a clip for a storm bolter should not be sufficiently unusual that it would make the quartermaster look at marine with enough pause to double the cost of requisitioning ammo.  An extra 5-points seems fair.
5) I am unsure on the thickness of a bolt-gun, but I would wager that they would be quite thick, and especially so where three clips are housed. I think it could be done.
 



#4 Radomo

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 04:27 PM

 Since we're on the subject, assuming the scenario provided access, how long should it take to 'reload' a backpack ammo supply?  Say, the kill team is making a last stand at an armory, where either extra backpacks would be available or it could somehow be reloaded.



#5 darkrose50

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 07:41 PM

I just got home from a game where I asked the question about three clips in one bolter. They showed me several pictures, including the one on the cover. Check out how the dude on the cover has a bolter with three clips. Two of them are on the side of the bolter.



#6 Nvester

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 09:05 PM

I would say that if you have say one Clip standard and two special then you get a special clip that is 3 clips in one, so that it houses the 2 special ammo and the standard.



#7 sayles78

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 11:10 PM

Sure, 3 clips of 28 on a bolter - no probs. It's the 3 clips of 60 (or 6 clips of 30) on a Storm Bolter that I have a problem with!

I imagine the Sternguard Models in WH40K Table Top have Fire Selectors and all their special ammo loaded in that big magazine on their bolters....

But I just dont see it on a Storm Bolter. And, it should cost WAY more Req Points.



#8 Radomo

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 04:54 AM

darkrose50 said:

I just got home from a game where I asked the question about three clips in one bolter. They showed me several pictures, including the one on the cover. Check out how the dude on the cover has a bolter with three clips. Two of them are on the side of the bolter.

 

What?  Link some pictures please.  On the cover, if you mean the buttons with I and II, those are not clips (probably a poorly design burst fire selector).  Compare their size to the one coming from the bottom.  

Then consider how large a magazine would need to be to hold 28 rounds of shell .75 in by 2.5 (ish) inches.  It's massive.  Discounting the thickness of the magazine itself and empty space, that's a volume of around 125 cubic inches, giving a magazine size in the 3 in x 4 in x 10 in range.  Fitting three of those on a bolter is preposterous, in my opinion.



#9 darkrose50

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 05:30 AM

Radomo said:

darkrose50 said:

 

I just got home from a game where I asked the question about three clips in one bolter. They showed me several pictures, including the one on the cover. Check out how the dude on the cover has a bolter with three clips. Two of them are on the side of the bolter.

 

 

 

What?  Link some pictures please.  On the cover, if you mean the buttons with I and II, those are not clips (probably a poorly design burst fire selector).  Compare their size to the one coming from the bottom.  

Then consider how large a magazine would need to be to hold 28 rounds of shell .75 in by 2.5 (ish) inches.  It's massive.  Discounting the thickness of the magazine itself and empty space, that's a volume of around 125 cubic inches, giving a magazine size in the 3 in x 4 in x 10 in range.  Fitting three of those on a bolter is preposterous, in my opinion.

I am new to the setting, but game with folks who are not. That combined with the rulebook explicitly stating that the bolters issued have fire selectors makes me think that those bits marked I and II are clips.

 

I also question the size as being smaller.

I was also told that there are TT models with five (5) clips - two (2) right, two (2) left, and one (1) down.



#10 sayles78

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 05:56 AM

Radomo said:

darkrose50 said:

 

I just got home from a game where I asked the question about three clips in one bolter. They showed me several pictures, including the one on the cover. Check out how the dude on the cover has a bolter with three clips. Two of them are on the side of the bolter.

 

 

 

What?  Link some pictures please.  On the cover, if you mean the buttons with I and II, those are not clips (probably a poorly design burst fire selector).  Compare their size to the one coming from the bottom.  

Then consider how large a magazine would need to be to hold 28 rounds of shell .75 in by 2.5 (ish) inches.  It's massive.  Discounting the thickness of the magazine itself and empty space, that's a volume of around 125 cubic inches, giving a magazine size in the 3 in x 4 in x 10 in range.  Fitting three of those on a bolter is preposterous, in my opinion.

 

And consider a Storm Bolter with a fire selector would hold 180 .75 bullets. A back-pack ammo drum for a Heavy Bolter only holds 250.



#11 Brother Praetus

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 11:54 PM

I would just like to point out; and this is open to interpretation somewhat.

Deathwatch core page 157; Fire Selector:

  • Description - "A staple tool of the Deathwatch, a shot selector...  A weapon with a fire selector can have up to three different clips added."
  • Upgrades - Bolt or Solid Projectile Pistols, Bolt or Solid Projectile Basic weapons.

While the piece of equipment is not so named, it is so described.

As to pictures. 

  • The Marine depicted on page 22 appears to have a Boltgun with two straight magazines in side mounted receivers, and a sickle mag under barrel.
  • The Tactical Marine shown on page 85 looks to have two straight magazines in his bolter's side, and a sickle mag in its under barrel receiver.
  • Not too sure about the Marine's bolter on page 202; but the blocky sections are numbered.  Could be another example.
  • As above, on page 266.
  • On page 377, the cover page for Extraction.  Very large and detailed picture.  Still, not certain the bolter has a fire/shot-selector, though.  Could be a scaling issue.

Anyway, hope some of you find that all handy.

-=Brother Praetus=-


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#12 Hiromoon

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 04:51 AM

Technically there's four small clips on each select-fire bolter...

www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1183520_99110101367_BitzDeathwatchConversionMain_873x627.jpg

www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1183515_99110101367_BitzDeathwatchConversion1_873x627.jpg

Unless they pass clear through the bolter, which would seem wierd.



#13 evilamericorp

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 05:27 AM

 Here's a pic of the Deathwatch marine model from Inquisitor. He has a bolter with a fire selector, and the boxes on the sides are the extra clips.



#14 Hiromoon

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 05:52 AM

See what I mean? And there's two small clips on the otherside as well.

Does this mean it goes all the way through the bolter or are they an additional set of clips for the same ammo type?



#15 HappyDaze

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 06:20 AM

Hiromoon said:

See what I mean? And there's two small clips on the otherside as well.

Does this mean it goes all the way through the bolter or are they an additional set of clips for the same ammo type?

Either way, those are certainly NOT 28-round magazines like the primary (bottom-fed).


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#16 KommissarK

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 06:30 AM

Just as an aside, I'm fairly certain that the "double" amount of shots the storm bolter fires subtract from the same clip value, in other words, it can fire on full auto 7 times (firing 56 shots), and then 1 more time on semi auto (firing 4 more shots).

Pretty sure its not effectively two different clips of size 60, and can fire 15 times on full auto.

 

Still, the fire selector just bugs me.



#17 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 06:35 AM

The fire selector should cut ammo capacity for each clip by 1/2 or 1/3 depending if it has 1 or 2 extra clips.

I have never been fond of the 3 full clips on one gun idea.
 



#18 Charmander

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 06:42 AM

I know it's RAW, but the physics of the whole thing hurts my brain.  And clips going through the middle of the gun where whatever the hell triggers bolts to ignight are, would that not interrupt the action some how? 

One on each side and underneath I might be able to suspend my disbelief, but something is silly about the three clip thing, especially if they go through the weapon.

Oh, and the guy on page 85 has the exact same buttons as the other marines, but doens't have bulky crap sticking out of his gun, so what does that mean?

 



#19 Hiromoon

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 06:49 AM

HappyDaze said:

Either way, those are certainly NOT 28-round magazines like the primary (bottom-fed).

Maybe it's a take on staggered magazines? Where the 1 on one side and the 1 on the other feed alternatively with each shot, and same with the 2-2?

 

And like ItsUncertainWho suggested, 1/2 or 1/3 clip size makes sense for the addon magazines, so you have one big sickle shaped magazine, then two smaller box mags that are split in half on either side of the gun?



#20 evilamericorp

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 07:33 AM

Hiromoon said:

HappyDaze said:

 

Either way, those are certainly NOT 28-round magazines like the primary (bottom-fed).

 

 

Maybe it's a take on staggered magazines? Where the 1 on one side and the 1 on the other feed alternatively with each shot, and same with the 2-2?

 

And like ItsUncertainWho suggested, 1/2 or 1/3 clip size makes sense for the addon magazines, so you have one big sickle shaped magazine, then two smaller box mags that are split in half on either side of the gun?

So effectively 5 magazines that need changing when you run out? That would make reloading a pain in the ass...

 






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