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Force Weapon question


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#1 evilamericorp

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 02:13 PM

Can the bonus dice from channeling psy power into a force weapon trigger righteous fury? It seems like they should be able to, since they're damage dice, but that has the potential for ridiculous amounts of damage from each attack, and how would it work? Would you have to reroll the opposed WP test for each 10 on the bonus dice? My group is undecided on the issue so far.



#2 Brother Argonus

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 08:32 PM

hi,

So I literally read up both rules and examples of use. It does appear to be the case that any damage rolled that does not preclude Righteous Fury should be used, as far as the weapon being overpowered is considered then remember that a psyker weilding a force weapon could just as easily use Smite and push it which puts in even more damage. But remember the weapon is not guaranteed to do the damage as far as I can see. There must be the opposed willpower test. I suppose if you wanted a balance in place you could award a corruption point as the Librarian is locking minds with something beyond human (or heretical) and thus corrupt.



#3 sayles78

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 08:46 PM

Can you 'push it' when making the Focus Power check to use the special ability of the force sword? And, are you subject to the same psychic phenomena / perils of the warp as normal when making this test?

I cant find anything preventing it, as it does say you make a Focus Power check with targets WP opposed roll - as per a normal opposed psychic power,

What do you think?

 



#4 KommissarK

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 08:52 PM

Personally, I would rule that righteous fury can only occur due to damage that is the direct result of a successful WS or BS test. This is partly because it must be confirmable, and also is per my reading of righteous fury ("when rolling damage after a successful attack"). I don't view the channeled energy from a psy weapon as a "attack" (its an opposed test). If it were treated as such, would the roll to confirm be a second opposed test?

 

Does toxic damage cause RF? If so, how is the roll to confirm handled?


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#5 sayles78

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 03:12 AM

 And... how is the D.o.S. calculated for extra damage of a force weapon after an opposed WP test.

If librarian's test attains 4 D.o.S. vs defenders 1 D.o.S. - is this calculated as 3 D.o.S. for damage purposes?

Or, as long as you have won the opposed roll, are all the D.o.S. used for damage? (i.e 4 D.o.D)

 



#6 evilamericorp

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 04:34 AM

KommissarK said:

Personally, I would rule that righteous fury can only occur due to damage that is the direct result of a successful WS or BS test. This is partly because it must be confirmable, and also is per my reading of righteous fury ("when rolling damage after a successful attack"). I don't view the channeled energy from a psy weapon as a "attack" (its an opposed test). If it were treated as such, would the roll to confirm be a second opposed test?

 

Does toxic damage cause RF? If so, how is the roll to confirm handled?

By that logic, normal psychic powers also wouldn't be able to cause righteous fury, as they use WP rather than WS or BS. You can confirm either one by rerolling your focus power test. I might as my GM if I can just treat it as a separate source of damage that can cause RF by itself, rather than lump in its damage with the force weapon's regular damage.



#7 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 09:37 AM

sayles78 said:

 And, are you subject to the same psychic phenomena / perils of the warp as normal when making this test?

Any time you activate a power roll you are subject to Phenomena/Perils unless otherwise stated. The only instance I can recall stating you cannot cause Phenomena/Perils are on Sustain checks.



#8 evilamericorp

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 04:34 PM

ItsUncertainWho said:

sayles78 said:

 

 And, are you subject to the same psychic phenomena / perils of the warp as normal when making this test?

 

 

Any time you activate a power roll you are subject to Phenomena/Perils unless otherwise stated. The only instance I can recall stating you cannot cause Phenomena/Perils are on Sustain checks.

The force sword's channeling is not a psychic power, it is an action granted by the item. You do not choose a power level to go with it (this only happens with psychic powers), and are therefore are not subject to phenomena/perils.


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#9 decPL

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 06:38 PM

evilamericorp said:

 

KommissarK said:

 

Personally, I would rule that righteous fury can only occur due to damage that is the direct result of a successful WS or BS test. This is partly because it must be confirmable, and also is per my reading of righteous fury ("when rolling damage after a successful attack"). I don't view the channeled energy from a psy weapon as a "attack" (its an opposed test). If it were treated as such, would the roll to confirm be a second opposed test?

 

Does toxic damage cause RF? If so, how is the roll to confirm handled?

 

 

By that logic, normal psychic powers also wouldn't be able to cause righteous fury, as they use WP rather than WS or BS. You can confirm either one by rerolling your focus power test. I might as my GM if I can just treat it as a separate source of damage that can cause RF by itself, rather than lump in its damage with the force weapon's regular damage.

 

 

I may be daft, but could you point me to the page where it says psychic powers do cause righteous fury? I'm under the impression that if they do, a pushed smite (any d10xPR power) is an auto kill (so many dice, almost a guarantee to multiply damage a few times).



#10 ak-73

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 07:02 PM

decPL said:

evilamericorp said:

 

KommissarK said:

 

Personally, I would rule that righteous fury can only occur due to damage that is the direct result of a successful WS or BS test. This is partly because it must be confirmable, and also is per my reading of righteous fury ("when rolling damage after a successful attack"). I don't view the channeled energy from a psy weapon as a "attack" (its an opposed test). If it were treated as such, would the roll to confirm be a second opposed test?

 

Does toxic damage cause RF? If so, how is the roll to confirm handled?

 

 

By that logic, normal psychic powers also wouldn't be able to cause righteous fury, as they use WP rather than WS or BS. You can confirm either one by rerolling your focus power test. I might as my GM if I can just treat it as a separate source of damage that can cause RF by itself, rather than lump in its damage with the force weapon's regular damage.

 

 

I may be daft, but could you point me to the page where it says psychic powers do cause righteous fury? I'm under the impression that if they do, a pushed smite (any d10xPR power) is an auto kill (so many dice, almost a guarantee to multiply damage a few times).

 

It doesn't say so explicitly I think but if you are to apply the standard damage rules, Righteous Fury will be included. Also I only reroll the dices that show-up 10 with RF as a house rule.

 

Alex

 


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#11 evilamericorp

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 07:25 PM

 Well heck, I guess psychic powers don't RF by the rules. Huh. Who would have guessed that shooting someone with lightning wouldn't count as an attack...

On the flip side, i guess that means that psychic powers also can't be dodged...

 

After a thorough read through of the rules for psychic powers, it seems like they were thrown together haphazardly by copy pasting from their other games, and not proofread well. The examples have seemingly incorrect numbers, and references that don't show up anywhere else in the rules, and the Focus Power action states that all psychic powers should have at least one action subtype (movement, attack, melee, ranged, defense, etc) and none of them do.

The more I look through this book, the less impressed I am with it...



#12 Brother Praetus

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 11:04 PM

evilamericorp said:

 

The force sword's channeling is not a psychic power, it is an action granted by the item. You do not choose a power level to go with it (this only happens with psychic powers), and are therefore are not subject to phenomena/perils.

 

You are incorrect.  The special ability of a Force Weapon (page 155) requires a Focus Power Test.  Per the write-up of the Focus Power Test action (page 239), it is a Psychic Power (this action is used to manifest Psychic Powers in combat) and is therefore subject to Phenomena/Perils.

In fact, every iteration of the Force Weapon; from Dark Heresy to Rogue Trader to Deathwatch, has the potential for the use of this special ability to cause Phenomena/Perils.  You are still tapping into and harnessing the Warp, and on an even more primal level.  It is a power balance factor.

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#13 sayles78

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 11:47 PM

Brother Praetus said:

 

evilamericorp said:

 

 

The force sword's channeling is not a psychic power, it is an action granted by the item. You do not choose a power level to go with it (this only happens with psychic powers), and are therefore are not subject to phenomena/perils.

 

 

 

You are incorrect.  The special ability of a Force Weapon (page 155) requires a Focus Power Test.  Per the write-up of the Focus Power Test action (page 239), it is a Psychic Power (this action is used to manifest Psychic Powers in combat) and is therefore subject to Phenomena/Perils.

In fact, every iteration of the Force Weapon; from Dark Heresy to Rogue Trader to Deathwatch, has the potential for the use of this special ability to cause Phenomena/Perils.  You are still tapping into and harnessing the Warp, and on an even more primal level.  It is a power balance factor.

-=Brother Praetus=-

 

 

 

Same as my understanding. It simply tells us to make a Focus Power Test. So, use the rules for a focus power test. It is a Focus Power test that causes Phenomena & Perils. Also, I believe, when making such a test, one can choose one of the 3 power levels to take the test with. As I interpret - a Focus Power test - is a psychic power test - so all rules, limits, advantages and disadvantages should apply.

 

I know this has no bearing what-so-ever, but worth a mention. In WH40k tabletop, using a force weapon's special ability is classed as a psychic power in every way. It counts towards the limit of casting pyschic powers per turn, can be nullified as per a psychic power and can also cause perils of the warp as per a pyschic power.


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#14 evilamericorp

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 04:33 AM

Brother Praetus said:

evilamericorp said:

 

 

The force sword's channeling is not a psychic power, it is an action granted by the item. You do not choose a power level to go with it (this only happens with psychic powers), and are therefore are not subject to phenomena/perils.

 

 

 

You are incorrect.  The special ability of a Force Weapon (page 155) requires a Focus Power Test.  Per the write-up of the Focus Power Test action (page 239), it is a Psychic Power (this action is used to manifest Psychic Powers in combat) and is therefore subject to Phenomena/Perils.

In fact, every iteration of the Force Weapon; from Dark Heresy to Rogue Trader to Deathwatch, has the potential for the use of this special ability to cause Phenomena/Perils.  You are still tapping into and harnessing the Warp, and on an even more primal level.  It is a power balance factor.

-=Brother Praetus=-

 

Where in the entry for the force sword does it say to "take a Focus Power action?" It says "Make a Focus Power test" the rules for which can be found on page 185, AFTER the rules for choosing power levels. This is going strictly by rules as written, not any interpretations. Nowhere does it say that the force sword's ability is a psychic power. It is its own free action granted by using the weapon.



#15 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 04:58 AM

evilamericorp said:

Nowhere does it say that the force sword's ability is a psychic power. It is its own free action granted by using the weapon.

Except for the fact that a Force weapon can only be used by a Psyker who channels the warp into it. So I guess that's not psychic at all then.



#16 evilamericorp

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 05:01 AM

ItsUncertainWho said:

evilamericorp said:

 

Nowhere does it say that the force sword's ability is a psychic power. It is its own free action granted by using the weapon.

 

 

Except for the fact that a Force weapon can only be used by a Psyker who channels the warp into it. So I guess that's not psychic at all then.

Psychic, yes. Psychic Power, no. Nowhere in the book does it say the ability either is a Psychic Power, or follows the rules for Psychic Powers. It just says to make a Focus Power Test, which is different from a Focus Power action.



#17 Cifer

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 05:06 AM

 Psychic, yes. Psychic Power, no. Nowhere in the book does it say the ability either is a Psychic Power, or follows the rules for Psychic Powers. It just says to make a Focus Power Test, which is different from a Focus Power action.

So which power rating do you apply to it?



#18 evilamericorp

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 05:14 AM

I would use my character's base Psy Rating.



#19 Cifer

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 06:08 AM

 Why? The rating you use for the Focus Power Test isn't your psy rating, but the one you choose from the Fettered/Unfettered/Pushed rules. If there's no choosing between them, neither is there any specific psy rating since the Focus Power Test only says "you may add a bonus to your Focus Power Test equal to 5 times the Psy Rating used for the power". That you use your "base" psy rating is an interpretation on your part, but since you're so adamant about following the RAW...



#20 evilamericorp

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 07:07 AM

 So you agree that RAW is broken and needs to be interpreted one way or the other to work.


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