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#1 KommissarK

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 07:05 AM

I'm in the process of setting up my game, and decided to come up with a way of actually stating what marines can carry.

House rule:

Marines have "slots" for the following:

Slots                           Item type

2x                                3x grenades

3x                                "small" items (pistols, knives, small gear)

2x or 1x                       May carry 2 "medium" (basic weapons, or large melee), or 1 "heavy" (heavy weapons) items

Ammo:

5x                               Reloads for "small"  items (shared across the all of them)

10x                              Reloads for "medium" items (shared across the all of them)

or

1x                                  Reload for "large" item (basically just the ammo backpack, and only if they have the weapon)

Conversions:

3x small items = 1x medium item (effectively, they may carry 3 medium items, at the cost of no small items, or 6 small, and 1 medium, or even 9 small)

Small ammo = medium ammo (basically, 15 reloads without heavy, or 5 reloads with heavy)

3x grenades = small item

1x small item = 5 reloads

1x medium item = 15 reloads

 



#2 Xenoviel

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 06:43 PM

The Deathwatch book mentions several times that every weapon (standard issue or requisitioned) comes with enough reular ammo. Deathwatch is not a game where you run out of ammo and die, that's Dark Heresy. In Deathwatch it's better to focus on amazing feats of heroism and excellence, as opposed to new and interesting ways to bog your game down with bookkeeping and inventory management. Also, if you let everyone have as much ammo as they need, no one can cheat and forget to mark down the three clips they used over there. Just think of how many fights you could avoid in the future!  My suggestion for carrying capacity: you have enough clips, packs, bags or whatever to carry everything you requisitioned for the mission. It's easy. 



#3 Radomo

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 04:24 PM

Xenoviel said:

The Deathwatch book mentions several times that every weapon (standard issue or requisitioned) comes with enough reular ammo. Deathwatch is not a game where you run out of ammo and die, that's Dark Heresy. In Deathwatch it's better to focus on amazing feats of heroism and excellence, as opposed to new and interesting ways to bog your game down with bookkeeping and inventory management. Also, if you let everyone have as much ammo as they need, no one can cheat and forget to mark down the three clips they used over there. Just think of how many fights you could avoid in the future!  My suggestion for carrying capacity: you have enough clips, packs, bags or whatever to carry everything you requisitioned for the mission. It's easy. 

 

Except for the heavy weapon backpack ammo supply is limited, unlike the unlimited pistol/basic magazines.  Also, special ammo (Hellfire, Kraken, etc.) is requisitioned by the magazine.  You still have to track ammo.  I do think there should be a reasonable number of clips of the standard ammo, rather than unlimited.  I would say 7-10 clips, rather than 5 (which is probably functionally unlimited, barring specific scenarios).  Heavy bolters would get the backpack and 2 extra clip-pattern magazines, + 2 pistol mags.  Marines do need to have the capability to work without resupply for some length of time.  It seems like only being able to fire your heavy bolter for ~2.5 minutes is a bit harsh for a last stand.



#4 tkis

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 07:48 PM

The carrying limits i proposed to my group are as follows:

1 Basic or Heavy Weapon or up to 2 close combat (including pistols, powerfists and lightning claws) weapons in the hands

1 Basic or close combat weapon on the back, using a dipole lock, or a backpack ammo supply or a jumppack

2 small weapons (combat knife, pistol), 3 grenades or 3 boltgun sized clips(less then 3 for bulkier ammunition, more then 3 for smaller one), 3 small gear options (auspex, repair cement, dataslate, in case of smaller equipment like locus seeker more than 3, in case of bulkier like meltabomb less then 3)

3 Boltgun sized clips (less then 3 for bulkier ammunition, more then 3 for smaller one) or 3 grenades per  leg/hip belt/satchel

Arm and Shoulder mounts as per rulebook.

Gives the characters enough spare ammo and gear capability for most mission types, does not  turn them into ridiculous ammo and gear heaps, and not too limiting on mobility.



#5 Space Monkey

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 02:56 AM

 As far as Ammo goes I was toying with an idea I'd like to present to you for feedback.

Each marine, due to limited storage space for ammo, is given 15 "Ammo Slots".

Each Pistol Reload is worth 1 slot, each Basic weapon reload is worth 2 slots, each Heavy Weapon reload is worth 3 slots, and any back-mounted item reduces the available slots by 5 points.

By this reckoning, the standard ammo payload of your "average" marine would be as follows:

Tactical, Apothecary, Techmarine & Librarian: 5 pistol & 5 basic weapon reloads.

Devastator: 1 Ammo Backpack, 2 Heavy reloads & 4 Pistol reloads.

Assault: 1 Jump Pack, and 10 Pistol reloads (he will be using his pistol in Melee with the 2-weapon talents as well as at range, so plenty of ammo would be a must).

 

Obviously, if the individual marine wished to sacrifice one ammo type for another he simply needs to make sure he doesn't break the 15 point limit.

How do you think this sounds? Could it work? Am I talking out my arse? 



#6 Lanceus Maximus

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 03:34 AM

I really like Tkis's idea, kinda reminds me of DOW2 or perhaps X-com. Here's my take on his take:

A space marine may carry:

In his hands: 1 Basic or Heavy Weapon or up to 2 close combat (including pistols, powerfists and lightning claws) weapons

On his back: 1 Basic or close combat weapon on the back, using a dipole lock, or a backpack ammo supply (or other heavy weapon reload) or a jumppack

In his utility belt: 2 small weapons (combat knife, pistol), 3 small gear options of 1 wt unit or less (auspex, repair cement, dataslate) or 1 larger gear option up to 15 wt units (meltabomb, signal beacon,clusterbombs) , 3 grenades or 3 basic/pistol weapon reloads

In his utility pouches*: 3 basic/pistol weapon reloads, 3 grenades


* secured by mag-lock to various convenient locations on the space marine's armor, such as the thighs, chest, lower legs.
 

Example:

Brother Avitus, a Devastator, carries the following into battle:

In his hands: heavy bolter
On his back: backpack ammo supply
In his utility belt: bolt pistol, combat knife, cluster mines, 3 frag grenades
In his utility pouches: 3 bolt pistol reloads, 3 krak grenades



#7 tkis

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 06:43 AM

I took my ideas primarily from close look on the marine models, they usualy have a a pistol, few grenades and an utility poach on the belt, a strip of grenades on one leg and a few clips on the other.



#8 postalpatriot

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 10:36 AM

tkis said:

I took my ideas primarily from close look on the marine models, they usualy have a a pistol, few grenades and an utility poach on the belt, a strip of grenades on one leg and a few clips on the other.

 I know its been said a million times. These are Space Marines, they are geared for long term extended combat missions. They don't skimp on what they give them. As for your account of the models, Keep this in mine. Fluff wise, They have a Dispensor on their belts. Those are Grenade Dispensors. The solo grenades on there belts are typical special types.. Its like a Pez dispensor for KAbooms!   Now that's not saying they are bottomless. I think it was one of the ultramarine books that really got into that. I think it was roughly like five or six grenades in each dispensor.

As for the ammo issue, Have you given thought to tailoring your mission towards attriton? Yes they have alot of shots, and they have alot of shots for a reason. Prolonged action, meaning they can be in the field for extended amounts of time, Missions are not allways a 40 min affair. That 100 rounds your Devisator is packing is alot less impressive if he's stuck in the field seeing constant combat for two weeks.



#9 tkis

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 08:24 PM

That is why i explicitly stated those are carrying limits, i do not want my players to be walking ammo dispensers. They can take additional supplies with them, but will need a base of operations, even if it is just their Droppod.

Gear limitations may sound tedious for some, but in my book they increase the immersion and add some interesting limiting factors to the game. Walking around and pulverising things on full auto, may be an interesting gameplay option for some, but thankfully not to my group. 

Deathwatch hardly ever takes part in wars of atrition, as their use is often even more surgical and specialized, than that of normal Astartes. A very special form of special forces, and i just do not see special forces, even if inserted behind enemy lines and without resupply options, carrying dozens of clips and multiple backpacks worth of gear per squad member. Adaptation to battlefield conditions can substitute for resource limitations. Additionaly i have yet to see the Background information stating, that Astartes are usually geared for long term extended combat missions and not short surgical engagements.

I am not trying to enforce those limitation rules on the gaming community, just presenting the limitation options we are using, to those who have considered something similar.



#10 Brother Praetus

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 12:31 AM

Space Monkey said:

Obviously, if the individual marine wished to sacrifice one ammo type for another he simply needs to make sure he doesn't break the 15 point limit.

How do you think this sounds? Could it work? Am I talking out my arse? 

 

I rather like the idea, Space Monkey.  I very well may implement it in the following modified manner:

20 points of "Ammo slots/capacity" with the additional considerations;

  • Grenades account for 0.5 points per grenade.
  • Demolition charges count for 1 point each.
  • Meltabombs cost 3 points each.

Most non-weapon type items will likely remain "free" with regards to ammo spacing.  What do you think?

-=Brother Praetus=-


"Truth is so rare it must be protected by a bodyguard of lies."

- Fortune Cookie


#11 pee

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 02:39 AM

Do most people suport the Idea that you may cary 2 main weapons?

 



#12 Edsel62

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 04:52 AM

pee said:

Do most people suport the Idea that you may cary 2 main weapons?

 

You can carry two basic weapons, one in each hand, but then of course you have no hands free.

If you do not have a backpack ammo supply or Jump Pack on then you can carry a single Basic weapon on your back.

That's pretty much how I have been running my game.



#13 boruta666

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 05:28 AM

Also ammo and attrition of resources forces hard decisions sometimes on kill-Team, helping poor guardsmen and lose ammo u may desperately need later or allow them to die and stick with mission plans.  Besides playing game with unlimited ammo to weapon as powerfull as bolter is kind of Full-auto everything that moves, than full-auto it again just to be sure that its dead, and one more full-auto to the face just to be sure it stays dead.

Ammo limits in our game are simple, 7-8 mags for bolter, 3 for bolt pistol, up to 12 grenades, close combat weapon, bonus stuff like auspex.  

But as GM i sometimes allow kill-team to use teleporter homing beacon to refresh ammo supply, only if mission allows ofc.  



#14 Umbranus

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 09:26 AM

pee said:

Do most people suport the Idea that you may cary 2 main weapons?

 

Yes, absolutely.

If a SM requisitions an additional basic or heavy weapon why should he leave his Boltgun at his Basecamp?

Just think about a Marine with a heavy flamer or rocketlauncher. The Flamer's range is very short so without his Bolter he would just stand around during a lot of fights. And the Launcher would be wasted on most kinds of enemies, so again time to stand around. Same with any kind of melta.

So for me it's not really a question.

 

The devastator gets the heavy Bolter and the Boltpistol. But I don't see why he shouldn't be able to requisition a basic weapon for fights that don't warrant to waste heavy ammo. But one could argue that it would be easier to requesition additional ammo in that case.



#15 Sippin

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 06:47 PM

Real life marines regularly carry up to 6-12 spare clips of ammo.  Space Marines are real marines turned up to 11.

A space marine with just 40 strength and toughness would have a carrying capacity of 675kg before he put on his armor that makes him stronger. Bump that up to 50 each and he can carry 2250kg. No weight issue there.

It is reasonable to assume they can maglock clips to their armor, or they have straps/pouches they dont show in pictures to make it looks cleaner. It seems kinda silly to set carrying limits to less than 20 spare clips for a space marine considering that could probably fit on a single one of their giant pauldrons.

Even with weapons a marine could easily carry a chainsword and a heavy weapon on his back, a bolter on his hip, and still have his hands free without getting in his way or getting close to his carrying weight. That is without getting into the ridiculous things you can do with a little freedom of movement sacrifice (a multi-melta on a shoulder, a heavy bolter on a leg, etc). Not that a marine would go in with that many weapons, but if the situation required it they could.

Marines have no supply issues on ammo, some have been fighting for decades/centuries, etc. They are not going to go into a fight without sufficient ammo.

If you want to make your game about constantly counting bullets thats up to you, but I think its important to remember the logical disconnect that requires.

 



#16 Delahunt

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 03:29 AM

Even without an ammo clip capacity you need to count ammo. Space Marines carry enough clips for the mission, but they still need to reload. That means that you need to keep track of ammo, if only to know when you need to reload.



#17 Sippin

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 05:00 AM

Delahunt said:

Even without an ammo clip capacity you need to count ammo. Space Marines carry enough clips for the mission, but they still need to reload. That means that you need to keep track of ammo, if only to know when you need to reload.

Yeah, sorry didnt mean to make that sound as if not counting bullets left in a clip was important. Just meant the total amount.



#18 Delahunt

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 06:07 AM

Sippin said:

Delahunt said:

 

Even without an ammo clip capacity you need to count ammo. Space Marines carry enough clips for the mission, but they still need to reload. That means that you need to keep track of ammo, if only to know when you need to reload.

 

 

Yeah, sorry didnt mean to make that sound as if not counting bullets left in a clip was important. Just meant the total amount.

 

Honestly, I'm currently on a "you can assume 5-7 magazines, as that should be enough for most missions" thing, but I am very heavily leaning towards "a dramatically appropriate amount of magazines". Meaning that, when I want - or think - that running low on ammo would make the game more fun, or tense, I will bring it into play, but aside from that just assume you have more mags on you.

I don't know if I will do that with grenades, as I think req'ing them in bandoliers of 3-5 is working plenty fine, and grenades are kinda special IMO, but for ammo I think it would work well.



#19 usnbajula

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 09:58 AM

I play with limited mags and a similar slot system. And i thinks its nice to have some realistic expectations even for a sci-fi game. I mean were do you put infinite ammo or are they all psykers who can create ammo out of the warp. And for any of you who are in the military or even better yet in the spec. ops side of the military, The space marines of today, they get issued a fair amount of gear and equipment but i have yet see any service member have infinite ammo for there weapons.






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