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Sisters of Battle


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#1 Perma_Hexx

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 07:21 PM

Is there no way sisters of battle can fight alongside the Deathwatch?  Are there rules to play them in DH?  Are there plans to put them in a future book.  You see I have a girlfriend who likes rpgs.  For me to put together a game that she cannot play a female in would be tricky.  3/5 players in my DnD group are female.  I understand that I can use DH to write up non DW that can group with DW on an Inquisitor mission but it would be great to use the sisters.  Also they are my favorite 40k army.



#2 Sister Cat

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 08:20 PM

They are in the Dark Heresy supplement, The Inquisitor's Handbook, and will likely show up in the upcoming release, Blood of Martyrs.

In order for a SoB to be on par with the DW Marines, she would likely have to be ascended, so you would need the Ascension supplement as well.

Hope that helps. 



#3 Cifer

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 11:33 PM

 You might simply ask your group whether they're ok with playing male characters.

Other than that, yes, Dark Heresy has Sororitas. However, a 13000 XP Sister of Battle is nowhere near equivalent to a Space Marine in combat - while they've got about the same amount of combat related talents, they're lacking the Unnatural Strength and Toughness, the ugly amount of wounds, the Astartes Power Armour,...

Their saving grace should be the Pure Faith talents, but those all require a Fate Point to trigger, so they're not exactly sutainable.

 

If you're willing to look a little deeper into Dark Heresy and its Ascension supplement, I'd suggest an Inquisitor (social character with lots of clout), a Vindicare Sniper (can hold his own in a squad of Marines) and perhaps a Sister gone Hierophant (combination of social and faith talents).



#4 MILLANDSON

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 01:21 AM

Plus, take into account that whilst all Marines came from male stock, they are Space Marines now, they have left such petty things as gender roles behind them, it just doesn't matter anymore. There is no reason at all that a female player can't play a Space Marine.


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#5 Kosem

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 04:03 AM

MILLANDSON said:

Plus, take into account that whilst all Marines came from male stock, they are Space Marines now, they have left such petty things as gender roles behind them, it just doesn't matter anymore. There is no reason at all that a female player can't play a Space Marine.

I actually have two female players and one is doing precisely this. The other isn't as comfortable playing a male character so we've hit a snafu there. We've talked about a few of the options in this thread. One of them should work out fine. As long as your player is ok with playing a male character, go for it. If not, then you'll want to look into some other options.



#6 Perma_Hexx

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 06:30 AM

Thank you to all the above, this info is very helpful.



#7 MILLANDSON

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 06:31 AM

Kosem said:

The other isn't as comfortable playing a male character so we've hit a snafu there.

My point was that Space Marines aren't "male characters", they're Space Marines. The differences in genetics, biological composition (ie the sheer number of extra organs inside them), psychological training and psycho-indoctrination all add up to make a Space Marine as removed from a Human as a chimpanzee is.

Either way, I just honestly can't get my head around roleplayers who have a problem playing alternate genders. I've never encountered in RL, and this forum is the first time I've ever run into it. What difference does it really, really, make if your character is male or female?

*honestly doesn't get it*


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#8 Cifer

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 06:53 AM

 Either way, I just honestly can't get my head around roleplayers who have a problem playing alternate genders. I've never encountered in RL, and this forum is the first time I've ever run into it. What difference does it really, really, make if your character is male or female?

At least for me, it's the possibility of doing it wrong. I'd say there is a difference between women and men, whether through nature or nurture and whatever that difference may be.

Now I don't have that problem portraying an elf or an orc (or even an eldar or an ork). Why not? Because there's generally noone around who knows better. However, most of the people at the table have some experience with women. So in the same way I wouldn't play a geologist in a more mundane setting while there's an actual geologist sitting at the table, I'm a bit shy about playing a woman (excepting NPCs obviously - but then again, most of them are not quite as detailed as PCs should be).

I guess it's the reverse of "Write who you know": "Don't write who someone else knows better".



#9 Kosem

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 07:29 AM

MILLANDSON said:

*honestly doesn't get it*

To be honest, neither do I. I've played female characters in the past. I'll admit it was a bit awkward at first. But when it comes to other people, I don't feel like it is anyone's place to judge them based on the fact that they feel more comfortable playing a character of the same gender. I understand that Space Marines have left the concept of gender behind them. I've explained such to my players. But I can't tell them what they should think. The best that I believe I can do is to give my players options to work with.



#10 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 07:40 AM

The thing to remember about Astartes is that they have not had any childhood or gender specific upbringing of any consequence. They are chosen when they are anywhere from 8-12 years old and almost all come from death worlds where a normal childhood would be nonexistent. They have spent their entire existence surviving, then they are made Astartes. Psychologically there is little to compare an Astartes to a normal person. 



#11 Charmander

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 08:41 AM

Cave men dealt primarily with survival as well, but they had gender roles.  Certain parts of our own planet see people growing up where their primary concern is survival too, and those people have gender roles.  What is a normal childhood?  In what time period?  In previous centuries we had knights and generals that were all very young, learning to fight and survive at very young ages, but they all had human psycology.

As for the Marines, I personally feel taking the notion of gender, humanity, one's sense of self, etc. away due to phsycial and psycological conditionoing goes hand in hand with the cookie cutter/robotic death machine concept that turns so many people off from actually wanting to play one.  I also feel it goes away from the works that people claim served as inspiration for them.  To me, they should want to sacrifice for humanity, not do it because they were programmed to.  Interpretations of fluff however, as shown on many threads, is in the eye of the beholder.

As for players being wierded out by playing a different gender, I totally get it, especially when that gender is represented, and even more so when you're trying to be serious about it and play the role well.  While there is no *technical* reason females can't play male space marines, I think you should consider personal psycology, personal acting ability, personal understanding of the opposite gender.  I'm not comfortable killing my own cattle for my burgers that are oh so tasty, but there is no logic based reason I shouldn't be able to.

/soapbox



#12 Kosem

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 10:29 AM

Charmander said:

 

As for players being wierded out by playing a different gender, I totally get it, especially when that gender is represented, and even more so when you're trying to be serious about it and play the role well.  While there is no *technical* reason females can't play male space marines, I think you should consider personal psycology, personal acting ability, personal understanding of the opposite gender.

 

 

I had actually not considered the concept of a particular gender being represented at the table when playing any game, not just Deathwatch. When I have played as the opposite gender, that gender has never been represented at the table. And I honestly would feel more uneasy in that situation than in one where where that is not the case.

I'd like to know your opinion of what one should do as a gamemaster in this situation. It's a very good point, thanks for mentioning it.



#13 Charmander

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 01:47 PM

We haven't had a lot of girls around the club house recently, so it's hard to say what I'd do for fact, but that said...

I think some of it depends on how the group arrived at the decision to play the game- usually someone comes up with a game to play and asks if folks would be interested. Some people say yes, others no, and some people begrudgingly go along. Others will openly ask or disagree with the part of the setting or game they like. If a woman brought up that they didn't want to play a guy (publicly or privately) I'd work to try and figure out what we could do to accommodate them- either by emphasizing traits that would be easier and more comfortable to play out (like playing up the gender neutral part of SMs or concentrating on the monk aspect), or looking for alternatives like the ones presented all over this board.

If a guy was playing a girl, and a girl then joined the group and then the guy became increasingly uncomfortable or felt more and more silly playing a girl, then I'd look for ways for him to cycle his character out and replace it. I'd just work with him to come up with a logical, in-world way of transitioning characters, through death, reassignment, or something else.

Now if the girl joined the game and had a problem with a player and their portrayal of women (or again, vice versa), I think that would earn the ‘buck up’ award.  We have a guy that plays pretty much nothing BUT girls, and while this may annoy people in the group, none one is going to stomp all over his character choice.
 



#14 Nuada_Obliage

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 11:55 AM

Honest how high a levelk would a Sister of battle have to be to equal a Space marine, well I mean sure combat they won't be as good (( though giving them good tech and such would be a great thing)) but roughly what do you think would be a good level? Maybe Acended to Crusader?



#15 Cifer

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 01:00 PM

 Depends on what you call "equal". If you disregard combat and physical exertions in general, 13000 XP should make her more than equal. 



#16 Charmander

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 02:02 PM

As Cifer said, probably around 13k. 

And so long as you're able to give each player their share of the spotlight, and give them opportunities to shine, participate, etc. then "level" isn't as much of an issue (see FatPob's and my discussion on a thread that I can't recall the name of- he has some good points and ideas).  Maybe she's better at speaking to people, maybe she has extra knowledges that the DW marines wouldn't have or would have a harder time accessing?  Point is she should have something that makes her feel like she can be competitive in some areas- doesn't have to be all of them by any stretch.

As DW is action oriented, for a Sister I'd personally look to give her Unnatural Toughness so I don't accidentally vaporise her when combat errupts.  Then I'd look to give her some weapons, equipment to bring her closer to par- I'd avoid the direct "here, have +1d10 to damage" but maybe something more subtle, like abilities on the weapon (accurate/master crafted items? something with felling?), or let her focus on exotic weapons of some kind, maybe a good hand to hand weapon?  Maybe a faith based shield of some kind.  Wouldn't give her the same destructive power, but let her at least let her feel like she has more than a nerf gun.



#17 Polaria

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 02:19 AM

FFG "Sisters of Battle" fluff goes against stuff in Codexes and such so much that its not even funny. I know, I know, they did it probably more because they wnated to introduce a reasonable power level SoBs into Dark Heresy, but you could as well throw the FFG Sister rules out of the window and treat them more or less equal to Marines...

My starting DW group has one player who prefers to play her own gender so I gave her two choices: Skitarii or Biomantic Psyker. In both cases I can justify making the character with DW rules. Skitarii is treated as Devastator and has unnatural strenght, toughness etc due to extensive cybernetic and genetic modifications (just like marines actually, only different tech since this is official AdMech issue). Biomantic Psyker is treated as Librarian and has  unnatural strenght, toughness etc due to powerfull biomancy and genetherapy (similar level to Officio Assassinorum operatives who are known to sometimes be faster, stronger and tougher than even normal Astartes).



#18 MILLANDSON

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 03:35 AM

Polaria said:

FFG "Sisters of Battle" fluff goes against stuff in Codexes and such so much that its not even funny. I know, I know, they did it probably more because they wnated to introduce a reasonable power level SoBs into Dark Heresy, but you could as well throw the FFG Sister rules out of the window and treat them more or less equal to Marines...

Actually, the current Sisters of Battle rules in Dark Heresy were all written by Black Industries, a sub-company of Games Workshop and original creators of Dark Heresy, before Games Workshop shut them down to save money and the 40k RPG licence moved to FFG.

So, really, it's Games Workshop employees who wrote all the SoB rules and fluff in Dark Heresy, not FFG. It's generally best to know this stuff before throwing around accusations and blame


~Yea, Tho I Walk Through The Valley Of The Shadow Of Death, I Shall Fear No Evil~

 

Posts/views/opinions are in no way representative of FFG, and are entirely my own.


#19 darkrose50

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 04:34 AM

Let her build a Sister of Battle.
1) Give her some unique artifact armor that provides double Strength and Double Toughness. Along with all the other normal armor stuff Battle Brothers get with type Mk VII Power Armor.
2) Allow her to requisition one of the starting kits from the Deathwatch for 0 requisition.
3) Start her out with the same wounds, and fate points as Deathwatch characters.
4) Make her somehow important to the Deathwatch. Perhaps the leader of the Deathwatch owed some Battle Sister, and she called in a favor to get one of her own some glory (or recon). Perhaps to display that women are as capable as men in war.
5) Give her a different paint-job, but perhaps keep it mainly black.

 

 

That way she is as strong (attribute wise), and does as much damage as her Battle Brothers.

 



#20 darkrose50

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 04:41 AM

Polaria said:

My starting DW group has one player who prefers to play her own gender so I gave her two choices: Skitarii or Biomantic Psyker. In both cases I can justify making the character with DW rules. Skitarii is treated as Devastator and has unnatural strenght, toughness etc due to extensive cybernetic and genetic modifications (just like marines actually, only different tech since this is official AdMech issue). Biomantic Psyker is treated as Librarian and has  unnatural strenght, toughness etc due to powerfull biomancy and genetherapy (similar level to Officio Assassinorum operatives who are known to sometimes be faster, stronger and tougher than even normal Astartes).

Or something like this. Call her a Sister of Battle, but let her make a Deathwatch character normally. Come up with different reasons for the bonuses (or swap out other different but equal bonuses).

Something like . . .

I understand Space Wolves still get jiggy with it, make her a unique Space Wolf offspring, who is a Sister of Battle, and has the double Strength and double Toughness bonuses (and some other equal bits). Make her the daughter of some high-ranking Space Wolf. 






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