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#1 immortal elf

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 11:00 AM

I admittedly only have the core book teh GM Kit and Inquisitor's Handbook, so I may be missing something here in lacking a couple of books, but...

Where are the Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, and the like?



#2 Evilscary

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 11:03 AM

Take a number and get in line. We've been asking that question since the DH rulebook first appeared.

The only TT races so far statted are Dark Eldar (in Purge the Unclean), Ogryns and Genestealers (in Disciples apparently) and supposedly Orks will appear in Creatures Anathema.

It's one of the biggest bugbears of the system that favourite badguys such as Orks and Eldar are yet to appear.



#3 immortal elf

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 11:22 AM

Don't get me wrong, I like the GM Kit's xeno-builder a lot, but these traditional enemies that are lacking seem to be kind of... well, lacking.



#4 Charax

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 11:27 AM

Creatures Anathema will have a few (the Ork and Genestealer got moved from Disciples to there, apparently)



#5 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 12:50 PM

immortal elf said:

Don't get me wrong, I like the GM Kit's xeno-builder a lot, but these traditional enemies that are lacking seem to be kind of... well, lacking.

The thing is, though, the traditional enemies are traditional because they tend to wage war against the Imperium rather than anything else (the only Eldar you're likely to see who aren't trying to kill you are outcasts - others exist, but they're rarer still - and they're not exactly common in the first place given the relative scarcity of the Eldar race in comparison to the vast numbers of humanity; similarly, Orks don't exactly play nice at the best of times - the most sociable an Ork is likely to be is when you find one open to working as a mercenary).

One of the problems that plagued attempts to bring various alien threats to Inquisitor was the general feeling that from amongst the well-known Xenos species, subtle and insidious threats simply didn't seem appropriate - we know the Eldar and the Orks and the Tau best from a military perspective, and indeed that's how the Imperium knows those species as well.

The same problem became evident in the first weeks and months after Dark Heresy was released - nobody knows what to do with the Ordo Xenos that doesn't involve shooting aliens in the face, because by and large, the only aliens we're familiar with... are those who are known to openly war against mankind. We don't see the insidious threats, the subtle shades of corruption, because they're not relevant to the wargame (that's why Genestealer Cults don't show up in the wargame any more... they're a good example, and pretty much the only prior one, of a suitably insidious, subversive threat of the kind the Inquisition should be focussing on). The problem is, those are the kinds of threats that the Ordo Xenos deal with - the Imperium has armies for shooting things in the face, and the duty of the Inquisition is to deal with those things that an army cannot be brought to bear against...

I'm a huge fan of the Eldar, but I don't actually see a need for them to appear amongst a list of primary antagonists in Dark Heresy... there's plenty of room for other species who aren't ravening hordes of monsters (indeed, Disciples of the Dark Gods does, IMO, a good job of illustrating this. There are plenty of xenos-related threats out there that don't involve armies and screaming tides of alien monstrosities).

Beyond that, within the primary setting for DH at least, it's been established that the Eldar aren't a significant presence (they avoid the sector, in fact), and there isn't a significant Ork presence (at least, not one significant enough to spend undue time and effort focussing on it). The Tyranids are distant (as of the 'baseline' date for DH - 815M41 - only one Tyrannic War has taken place), as are the Tau (first official contact took place only a century ago), the Necrons haven't been rediscovered yet (though they might already be awake)... the Calixis Sector is a quiet little corner of space in military terms, and will likely remain so for at least another 184 years (in 999M41, the 13th Black Crusade begins. During that war, the turmoil allows an Ork WAAAGH to invade the Scarus sector, which is right next to the Calixis Sector)


Writing Credits for Fantasy Flight Games: Into the Storm, Edge of the Abyss, Battlefleet Koronus, Hostile Acquisitions, Black Crusade Core Rulebook, First Founding, The Jericho Reach, The Soul Reaver, Only War, The Navis Primer,Ark of Lost Souls, and Hammer of the Emperor

I no longer write for, or am employed by, Fantasy Flight Games in any fashion. All of my comments are my own, and do not reflect the opinions of any employer, past, present, or future.

#6 Torque2100

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 01:10 PM

I honestly like that aspect of this game. In my humble opinion the traditional badguys are far too overexposed and less traditional xenos races like the Slaan and the Jokero need more "screen time" as it were.  I really hope that Creatures Anathema isn't just Dark Heresy stats for things from the tabletop game. I really like bad guys like the Slaught, Cryptos and Psychneuein and would like to see more original baddies like them.  Orks, Necrons and Tyranids are cool and all, but I think those kinds of campaigns are what the Rogue Trader game should cover when it is published.  In the mean time, I want more original critters to throw at my players.  Things the haven't seen before.



#7 Kage2020

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 02:38 PM

N0-1_H3r3 said:

The thing is, though, the traditional enemies are traditional because they tend to wage war against the Imperium rather than anything else...

Don't shoot me, but surely a part of this is how much you buy into the whole "... in the grim dark future there is only war..."?  I ask merely because after I got out of the wargame back in, erm, 1990-or-so the whole "there is only war" perspective was shifted firmly into the background.  Admittedly, I only got back "into" 40k about 8 years ago, but since that time I've really only dwelled upon "in the grim dark future there is only... RPG."  

I know it's the central theme of 40k, and a pretty major one of Dark Heresy as well, but just wondering whether there might be alternatives.  After all, propaganda is often swiftly moderated by sheer pragmatism.

Just throwing it out there.  As always, YMWV.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

One of the problems that plagued attempts to bring various alien threats to Inquisitor was the general feeling that from amongst the well-known Xenos species, subtle and insidious threats simply didn't seem appropriate...

This strikes me as... off, for some reason.  Perhaps it's just because the idea that something is presented in the wargame makes it inappropriate for "insidious threat."  I wholeheartedly agree that we "don't see the insidious threats, the subtle shades of corruption, because they're not relevant to the wargame," but at the same time I don't think that this excludes the major races.

I guess it comes down to... Hmmn... Just because someone pokes you with a stick doesn't mean that they didn't first coat it with poison.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I'm a huge fan of the Eldar, but I don't actually see a need for them to appear amongst a list of primary antagonists in Dark Heresy... there's plenty of room for other species who aren't ravening hordes of monsters...

If you go by the traditional imagery, the Eldar are more certainly not a "ravening horde of monsters."  

I can understand that Calixis might not have them (or orks or whatever) but... Well, guess it is another clarion call for Rogue Trader rather than Dark Heresy?  The latter is, for the most part, good at what it does, but it seems that when people want "40k RPG" they want to go beyond the smaller (not bad) focus that Dark Heresy took.

It always struck me that the major block to developing the Eldar was the idea that it was unlikely that we will ever be givne the insights into the Eldar that would be required to make a decent attempt at RPing them with any facility.  Would love to be wrong, but...

Kage



#8 Dezmond

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 03:59 PM

Kage2020 said:

after I got out of the wargame back in, erm, 1990-or-so the whole "there is only war" perspective was shifted firmly into the background.

 

I'd swear you weren't looking at the pictures...

They were some hardcore heavy metal loving longhairs back in the day. To weird for me (at the time. Now I think its the bolloxs). Its only after they grew up and cut their hair and stopped wearing leather that the nihilism dropped out.

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I say, you can sell someone a book about Eldar, or explain to each and every one why you won't and watch them go away empty handed.



#9 Peacekeeper_b

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 06:17 PM

But Eldar are in the Calixis sector, thats why they show up in PtU, even if by accident, it sets the precendence that they can and will show up in DH.

And orks are referred to as being at war with humans on several of the worlds in the Calixis sector. To me that implies that ravening hordes of orks are by far more common, then say, blood letters, yet they were stated in the first book.

Im not saying you need any of these blokes for the good game, and I think them not being there makes for an even better game. Players expect them. But honestly, at some point the publishers need to understand, that even if we dont intend to use them, we still want to see them.

And it sells more books that way too. As Dezmund says, if they make a book based on the Eldar, Im sure everyone on this forum and many many more will pay the $40 for the 124 pages of mainly reused words and art.



#10 HeirofNagash

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 10:24 PM

Hmmm subtlety and orks....that sparked an idea in my head...

How about orkophile humans?

Let's take a group of  humans that have survived an ork attack and found that the simple mindset of the orks was what made them stronger. Heck, it's a known fact that some traumatised victims begin to identify with their attacker.  So, they might have dubious brain surgeries performed on them (maybe by a crazed Techpriest or Medic), reducing them to a much simpler state of mind while at the same time increasing their natural aggression. Add some green (and, of course, red) paint, some implanted muscle mass....

Sounds, at least to me, like a nice setup for an Ordo Xenos adventure. Imagine the faces of the players when they find out they are actually fighting crazed humans instead of rooting out a small ork infestation.

Well, I think it's funny, at least.

 



#11 Peacekeeper_b

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 11:41 PM

HeirofNagash said:

Hmmm subtlety and orks....that sparked an idea in my head...

How about orkophile humans?

Let's take a group of  humans that have survived an ork attack and found that the simple mindset of the orks was what made them stronger. Heck, it's a known fact that some traumatised victims begin to identify with their attacker.  So, they might have dubious brain surgeries performed on them (maybe by a crazed Techpriest or Medic), reducing them to a much simpler state of mind while at the same time increasing their natural aggression. Add some green (and, of course, red) paint, some implanted muscle mass....

Sounds, at least to me, like a nice setup for an Ordo Xenos adventure. Imagine the faces of the players when they find out they are actually fighting crazed humans instead of rooting out a small ork infestation.

Well, I think it's funny, at least. 

Sounds like a mix of Gorkamorka Diggas and the Armageddon Ork Hunters. They were in one of the Chapter Approved books. They used Ork weapons and could even use the Ork Waaagh rules.

Diggas are humans on the planet Angelin who were subjugated by the orks after the greenskins crashed on their homeworld. The Diggas hide in old temples and below ground but see orks as the highest form of evolution. They often join ork gangs and bands and paint themselves green.

So go for it.



#12 Dezmond

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 11:47 PM

+++++Hmmm subtlety and orks....+++++

Orc kommandos



#13 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 12:52 AM

Kage2020 said:

I know it's the central theme of 40k, and a pretty major one of Dark Heresy as well, but just wondering whether there might be alternatives.  After all, propaganda is often swiftly moderated by sheer pragmatism.

Just throwing it out there.  As always, YMWV.

As far as I'm aware, one of the primary requirements for a race to appear in the wargame is the capacity to wage war on a scale significant to the galaxy. The Tau are at the very lower end of that scale, while the Orks (due to numbers and sheer tenacity), and the Eldar (due to mobility and foresight) push towards the upper end of the scale - they can be a threat anywhere, at almost any time.

Thing is, though, it's not about there "being only war", at least not from the Imperial perspective. It's ingrained xenophobia. The Imperium reviles anything that isn't human (for a given value of human)... the Eldar tend not to consider other species favourably anyway and (on the Craftworlds and Exodite worlds at least) are reclusive and insular, only getting involved in galactic matters when necessary - they aren't happy little space elves who fly around the galaxy helping humanity.., they're callous and self-interested manipulators and schemers who will do almost anything for their culture to survive. Orks are beligerant warmongers by nature - they'd love a galaxy that contained "only war".

And really, with the Tyranids, Necrons and Tau out of the picture due to reasons of timing and distance... the Eldar and the Orks are really the only two 'big name' Xenos species in 40k.

 

Kage2020 said:

This strikes me as... off, for some reason.  Perhaps it's just because the idea that something is presented in the wargame makes it inappropriate for "insidious threat."  I wholeheartedly agree that we "don't see the insidious threats, the subtle shades of corruption, because they're not relevant to the wargame," but at the same time I don't think that this excludes the major races.

I agree to an extent - I do see plenty of room for using the Eldar in a subtle manner, though it revolves around the Outcasts more than anything else, and requires a fair bit of thinking outside the box and creating new material. My point is more that the Eldar and the Orks, etc, that we know best... are unsuited to anything but warfare, because we're only presented with the warriors of those cultures.

Kage2020 said:

If you go by the traditional imagery, the Eldar are more certainly not a "ravening horde of monsters." 

Tell the Imperium that.

My point is really one of perception. The things that most people associate with the Eldar are Farseers and Aspect Warriors and Gravtanks, as far as I'm aware... which is only natural, as that's what we're exposed to given the inherent focus of the wargame. While there is room for exploration beyond the militant surface, I've seen few people attempt it - the subject of including the Eldar in Inquisitor normally resolved around trying to jam Aspect Warriors and Warlocks and Wraithguard (the latter because it's really easy to convert an Inquisitor-scale Wraithguard from a 40k Wraithlord) into a game unsuited for their presence, rather than trying to look deeper and come up with something appropriate and new and interesting to serve that purpose.

It's also a matter of perceiving the Ordo Xenos. In spite of never having been given a codex in 40k, there seems to be this enduring perception that the Ordo Xenos spends its time shooting aliens in the face, with little or no consideration of anything else. With that perception, comes a desire for the same old aliens to shoot in the face, which kind of hinders the investigative side of the game.

Certainly, I wouldn't have said no to the inclusion of the Eldar, or in a different "default sector", the Tau (who have plenty of obvious room for non-militant development - we know of the other three castes, even if they don't get much attention in 40k), or some other old foe presented in a different light to normal... but I wouldn't, personally, like to see them at the expense of the new and interesting things - things tailor-made as insidious threats rather than "the monster at the door", such as the Slaugth, the Cryptos, or more human xenos-related threats like black market xenos artefacts, or things like the Beast House.

I'd rather have new and unusual, than a rehash of the same old material and the same old enemies, at least in part because the majority of the DH-playing community are familiar with the 40k universe and can quite easily include those old foes in the game if they so choose - it's no harder, really, than writing up any other kind of NPC. I'd rather have the new and unusual primarily because my group (and the accompanying waiting list of players who would like to be in my group, but who there isn't room for) are all experienced 40k players (many are former or current GW staff), with extensive knowledge of the 40k background... so I'd rather throw the unknown at them than the familiar, because it makes for a more interesting game.


Writing Credits for Fantasy Flight Games: Into the Storm, Edge of the Abyss, Battlefleet Koronus, Hostile Acquisitions, Black Crusade Core Rulebook, First Founding, The Jericho Reach, The Soul Reaver, Only War, The Navis Primer,Ark of Lost Souls, and Hammer of the Emperor

I no longer write for, or am employed by, Fantasy Flight Games in any fashion. All of my comments are my own, and do not reflect the opinions of any employer, past, present, or future.

#14 Dezmond

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 01:30 AM

I think it is better to modify and retool things to give people what they want rather than keep pissing in to the wind and be constantly explain why they can't play their favorite characters.

Inquisitor really took a bit of a hammer to Inquisitor background to get them in the game as well. Who really knew inquisitors spent all their time shooting each other and playing politics instead of running around burning people? That turned out to be a real improvement and freed people up for a lot of cool stuff. Maybe Eldar special forces insertion teams (or whatever) would do the same?

How to shamelessly pander to the whims of the masses as gracefully as possible - this should be the focus of efforts!



#15 Peacekeeper_b

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 03:19 AM

Yeah, but we've gotten the slaugth twice now and I wasnt impressed with this "original" xenos threat the first time around.



#16 Snidesworth

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 03:23 AM

Maggots in the Meat didn't do anything to catch my attention. The Amaranthine Syndicate, on the other hand, did. As did the two pages of fluff prefacing the Xenos chapter, which made me horribly intrigued.



#17 Charax

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 03:25 AM

really? I love them, I've even started sculpting a 54mm Vassal Construct. I'm a huge fan of biopunk/body horror stuff.



#18 Peacekeeper_b

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 03:51 AM

Snidesworth said:

Maggots in the Meat didn't do anything to catch my attention. The Amaranthine Syndicate, on the other hand, did. As did the two pages of fluff prefacing the Xenos chapter, which made me horribly intrigued.

The Xenos and Hereticus chapters are pretty amazing (A+ of FIve Stars). The Malleus and Tyrant Star less so (C- or Two Stars) and I havent read the Enemy Within section yet but it looks nice.

Its a pretty good book, but it isnt the end all be all of support material. I still think the Inquisitor's Handbook was by far superior.

But if they only added Vehicle Rules LOL.

My overall, I highly recommend everyone getting this book. Dont take our praise or criticism of it as law. Im pretty positive everyone will enjoy at least 50% of the material in this book.






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