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Lily Chen clarification


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#1 Elric91

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 02:41 PM

I am cross posting this, as i am not sure where i should post it. 

On the martial artist lily chen, when does she gain the listed stamina/sanity gains?  She has a focus of 2 stops, and when her stamina/sanity increases she gains 1 point of stamina or sainity. Does that resolve after each "stop" during the slider move,  so she could technically move the slider one stop to left, gain 1 stamina, then move the slider 1 stop to the right, and gain one sanity? Or does the listed sanity/stamina gains only kick in at the end of the slider movement phase, once both of her focus has been resolved, and we calculate the end net result of what increased or decreased?

 



#2 Conejo

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 03:47 PM

my interpretation (YMMV) would be that you can only increase one or the other per upkeep, so you couldn't step 1 right and then 1 left to gain 1 of each.



#3 Elric91

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 03:57 PM

I actually found an official ruling posted, i assume, by the creator of the game, and i have copied part of the conversation for clarity:

KH] 1. Do Elusive Monsters still not move if an Investigator is in their space? Given that they deliberately avoid combat, it seems that Elusive monsters should move whether an Investigator is in their space or not. Otherwise it's a pretty big weakness, since a player could neutralize Tulszhca's Elusive Cultists just by staying in their space. And do Hastur's Cultists NOT swoop down on Investigators, but only on Elder Signs when Tulzscha is the Herald? All of this would seem very logical, but the rulebook doesn't say. (06/13/08)
Ok, I've got some time this afternoon, so let me try to clear these up.
Elusive monsters will ignore investigators for purposes of movement, so they'll move away if they're in the same area as an investigator. This will be errata'ed when we update the FAQ for Kingsport.

[KH] 2. Can Lily Chen get a point of Sanity and a point of Stamina in the same turn just by wriggling her slider back and forth, or does it just matter where her slider ends? (06/13/08)
Originally I had intended her to be able to do so, but looking at the thread on the Yig issue, I've changed my mind. She only adjusts her SAN/STAM based on the final position of her slider.

[KH] 3. What happens if a Rift appears in Kingsport and moves into a Vortice? I would say it simply remains there, spitting out a monster that instantly passes through the vortice every time it is supposed to move, but again, the rulebook doesn't say. (06/13/08)
If a rift moves into a vortex, it just sits there, as you surmised. Note that a rift will still add a doom token / spit out monsters if it cannot move. The drawing of the proper dimensional symbol on a mythos card is the trigger for that, NOT the actual movement.

4. Does a Gate Box, such as Luke's, allow an Investigator to return to Arkham on any gate even though there is no gate open to the other world he is coming from? The text of the gate box seems to argue against this, but Luke's character would see to argue for it. (06/13/08)
Yes. That is the intent.

5. Do "return monsters to the cup" effects work on Spawn monster or no? Can the Feds Raiding Arkham actually get rid of the Dunwich Horror? (06/13/08)
No. Spawn monsters should never returned to the cup by card effects like "Feds Raid Arkham".

Seems to me if it was intended one way and gets changed, it would leave the investigator underpowered versus some of the others, but then again there are so many investigators to choose from its not worth worrying over.



#4 ColtsFan76

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 04:00 PM

Yes, that is the official word from Kevin Wilson, the game's designer.  I asked and posted those answers.



#5 mageith

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 04:39 PM

Elric said: "[KH] 2. Can Lily Chen get a point of Sanity and a point of Stamina in the same turn just by wriggling her slider back and forth, or does it just matter where her slider ends? (06/13/08)
Originally I had intended her to be able to do so, but looking at the thread on the Yig issue, I've changed my mind. She only adjusts her SAN/STAM based on the final position of her slider.

Elric said: Seems to me if it was intended one way and gets changed, it would leave the investigator underpowered versus some of the others, but then again there are so many investigators to choose from its not worth worrying over."

You really think an investigator that can gain one or two(?) sanity or stamina per turn is underpowered? Compared to whom?  In addition she can have up to 9 unmodified fight that is unaffected be either resitance or immunity.  I hate to bring her up against Glaaki, who's servants kill skills, but other than that she's usually an asset.

You want someone underpowered, try Dexter Drake. He get's to look at an extra spell or two per game.  And look at is about all he gets too. With but 5 sanity, he can't even cast very many of them. 



#6 ColtsFan76

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 04:53 PM

She's not underpowered.  It was a case of her being overpowered as originally designed and brought back more on par with the others due to this clarification.



#7 allstar64

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 05:21 PM

Oh perfect. Just as Kanes topic is about to die we get one on Lily. The other massive argument starter. For the record it was decided that she can't "toggle" to heal one of both because this would make her immune to Yigs attack.

 

The problem is it wasn't clarrified if moving her slidder twice lets her heal her sanity/stamina twice (depending on which way she moves it) or once. Personally I believe she can only heal 1 of anything per turn. Otherwise she's still immune to Yigs attack. Not to mention if you play that she can heal twice per turn and she then gets her focus up by one she's now healing 3 times per turn. Bottom line she is spitting on the doctor and the psycologist if she can heal more than once per turn.

 

This will probably come up eventually so I'm throwing it out htere now.



#8 thorgrim

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 05:35 PM

Well, Kevin's answer does say that it is based on the FINAL position of her slider, so if you move it once then move it again in the same phase, only the second one would count because that would then be the final position of the slider.



#9 Avi_dreader

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 08:25 PM

::Shrug:: whatever, basically she starts off with a healing stone...  I still don't think she's overpowered though...  It annoys me that she starts off with very little resources...  I like more customizable investigators i.e. Terror is invading town?  Who cares!  I like shopping!  Whee!



#10 Frank

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 09:12 PM

The intention is now that she should gain one of Sanity or Stamina each round, and not both. Unfortunately, the "clarification" doesn't actually say or do that properly. Since if you follow the instructions literally you can still toggle Stamina up two one turn and togle Sanity up two the second and gain an average of one Sanity and one Stamina every turn anyway. And if you add in an additional restriction that it can't add more than one Sanity or Stamina per turn then she loses the original functionality of being able to regenerate without reducing her current reserves.

Sadly, she just needs new writing to adhere to the new and reduced expectations of Lily.

"If Lily expends at least one focus modifying her Sanity/Stamina slider, she regains one Stamina or Sanity."

That is the kind of wording she actually needs to do the things she is actually supposed to do without being able to insta-gib Yig.

 

-Frank



#11 Elric91

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 10:11 PM

The wording on the card says "Each time lily increases max stamina, she gains 1 point of stamina. Each time lily increases max sanity, she gains 1 point of sanity"

Sooo, if we agree that we only calculate based on the final position of the slider, the question we ask ourselves after we finish our slider movement is : Did she increase? Whether she Increased by one or two does not matter. if she increased by one, she gaines one. if she increased by two, she still gains one, because the wording makes the amount of the increase irrelavant.

That being said, she certainly is not the weakest investigator in the game, even after the nerf, and on that point i can agree. Was she the most powerful? Well, after reading the investigators, i can see how she might seem out of balance with the rest of the investigators, but  Its hard to compare them. Because of the spirit of the cuthulu game, not all investigators are there for the same reason; some are there, such as the bounty hunter, to collect cash. Others, like the dreamer, are excellent gate closers. Then add the reporter who draws 2 location cards when he draws location cards, and chooses the best one. He is a great clue gathering, location searcher.

Look at Mandy Thomson's ability to allow ANY investigator, anywhere at all, to completely re-roll a failed check, using all the dice, including ones from clue tokens.  And thats useable once per turn. Top that off with mandy starting off with more items than lily. Now for the "combat" characters. Many of them either start off with a high fight rating of at least 4, like Joe Diamond and Wilson Richards, and both of those characters start with a gun, and either twice Lilly's starting cash or more than twice her possessions, including a combination of unique items and common items, increasing the odds of another weapon being drawn or a nifty gizmo. Look at Michael Mcglen. $8 starting cash, fight skill of 6, speed of five, and starts with a tommy gun. Now for Lily, Unarmed combat rating of 9, and can self heal sanity and stamina drains, and can set her sanity/stamina to variable levels. How often have we seen combat characters exceed a combat rating of 9 in a game of arkham horror? its not very hard, the main bonus here is its un-affected by phisical and magical reductions and immunities. But if memory serves, many of those have high sanity hits, and if lily maxes her fight skill, she will fail each and every one because of her horrible willpower.

I dis-agree that Lily was too overpowered. She had less gear than other "combat" characters, and less cash. That was the balancing factor. The only thing she really had was that self heal and the unresistable combat vaule, not something begging for a nerf from what i can see. And remember, if she does the toggle self heal, as per the old rules, she cannot adjust any of her other skills, and thats definately a drawback, as i usually am moving my skills around alot to fit the circumstances. So she had less flexability than the other characters did, with skills that tended to be more "locked in". Still, she could do worse, and i agree she is still not the weakest character in the game, but i do not feel she was so overpowered that she needed a nerf. I have played Lily in several of the more difficult games with the hard GOO's, and i have been devoured and eaten just as many times as the other players.



#12 MrsGamura

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 10:53 PM

 I just play her as the card is worded. Lot simpler and if she fight Yig guess where going to Epic Battle.



#13 mageith

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 07:04 AM

Double Post correction



#14 mageith

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 07:05 AM

Elric writes: The wording on the card says "Each time lily increases max stamina, she gains 1 point of stamina. Each time lily increases max sanity, she gains 1 point of sanity" Sooo, if we agree that we only calculate based on the final position of the slider, the question we ask ourselves after we finish our slider movement is : Did she increase? Whether she Increased by one or two does not matter. if she increased by one, she gaines one. if she increased by two, she still gains one, because the wording makes the amount of the increase irrelavant.

Mageith: Actually that's how I play here, one maximum per turn, but after reading everything here, I'm not sure what the new intention is.  I think Kevin's fix was to prevent gaining one sanity and stamina per turn by not really doing anything.  Now when you increase sanity for example, you risk lowering stamina and vice versa.  We play with her a lot and she's just an average investigator, barely, with the heal one stamina/stamina  fix. 

Elric: That being said, she certainly is not the weakest investigator in the game, even after the nerf, and on that point i can agree. Was she the most powerful?

Mageith: No. Daisy, Wendy and Mandy are still definitely more powerful.  Others are comparable.

Elric: Well, after reading the investigators, i can see how she might seem out of balance with the rest of the investigators, but  Its hard to compare them. Because of the spirit of the cuthulu game, not all investigators are there for the same reason; some are there, such as the bounty hunter, to collect cash. Others, like the dreamer, are excellent gate closers. Then add the reporter who draws 2 location cards when he draws location cards, and chooses the best one. He is a great clue gathering, location searcher.

Mageith: Unfixed she's definitely better than average.  I agree with you on Darrell, the reporter. He's a superior investigator. If his rule stops even one gate and monster, he's done his job.

Luke, the dreamer, is at best average. It depends on how you play his rule.  If he can immediately go back into an Other World on the turn he arrives, he's average.  If he has to wait a turn, he's barely average.  If he has to sneak out and back in, he's not even average.

The bounty hunter is probably average. He's needs a much better weapon to be a real fighter and to do that he probably needs more than his starting funds.

Elric: Look at Mandy Thomson's ability to allow ANY investigator, anywhere at all, to completely re-roll a failed check, using all the dice, including ones from clue tokens.  And thats useable once per turn. Top that off with mandy starting off with more items than lily. Now for the "combat" characters. Many of them either start off with a high fight rating of at least 4, like Joe Diamond and Wilson Richards,

Mageith: I don't consider 4 a high fight, but average.  For the most part Fight has to be paired with Will.  You need at least 4 Will and 5 Fight to be above average in the combat area, IMO.

Elric writes: ...and both of those characters start with a gun, and either twice Lilly's starting cash or more than twice her possessions, including a combination of unique items and common items, increasing the odds of another weapon being drawn or a nifty gizmo.

Mageith:  Lilly starts with better than either Wilson or Joe.   As I said before, you can have upto 9 unmodificable Fight/Combat from the get go.  She ready to go against most medium monsters which is about as good as any of the Fighters are.  Unlike most of the other fighters she can handle the craziness with her ability to heal her sanity.

Elric writes Look at Michael Mcglen. $8 starting cash, fight skill of 6, speed of five, and starts with a tommy gun.

Mageith: And but 3 sanity and I think 3 Will (maybe 4). He's the model of the fighter who can't stand the craziness. This really becomes apparent if you've added in the Kingsport monsters which nearly doubles the 2 toughness monsters in the game and chances the mix of monsters radically.

 Elric writes: Now for Lily, Unarmed combat rating of 9, and can self heal sanity and stamina drains, and can set her sanity/stamina to variable levels. How often have we seen combat characters exceed a combat rating of 9 in a game of arkham horror? its not very hard, the main bonus here is its un-affected by phisical and magical reductions and immunities. But if memory serves, many of those have high sanity hits, and if lily maxes her fight skill, she will fail each and every one because of her horrible willpower.

Mageith: In this respect she's no different than any other fighter, is she? ALL the fighters need help, but some of them can get it easier thanothers. It's difficult to improve Ganster McGlen for example, becauses there's little that easily repairs sanity or increases Will.  At least Lily can heal sanity losses and its built in.

Elric writes:  I dis-agree that Lily was too overpowered. She had less gear than other "combat" characters, and less cash. That was the balancing factor. The only thing she really had was that self heal and the unresistable combat vaule, not something begging for a nerf from what i can see.

Mageith: She still wouldn't be top tier even if not nerfed.  However since she can directly be compared to such characters as the doctor, the psycholgist and Leo the Leader, she was clearly better (more than twice as good) as they are. I think it's that that caused all the uproar.

Elric writes:  And remember, if she does the toggle self heal, as per the old rules, she cannot adjust any of her other skills, and thats definately a drawback, as i usually am moving my skills around alot to fit the circumstances. So she had less flexability than the other characters did,

Mageith: Several investigators have a Focus of 1.  She has average focus.  She just has more choices. To me that's more flexibility, not less. Many investigators must spend their clues or other resources to gain resources.  For example the psychic should hold back 2 clues to stop Mythos cards or Charlie the Politican should hold back clues to stop terror rising. Joe the Private Investigator needs to hold back clues in order to take advange of his special skill, too.

Elric writes: ...with skills that tended to be more "locked in". Still, she could do worse, and i agree she is still not the weakest character in the game, but i do not feel she was so overpowered that she needed a nerf. I have played Lily in several of the more difficult games with the hard GOO's, and i have been devoured and eaten just as many times as the other players.

Mageith: Under current rules or her original rules?  She wasn't the best and now isn't the worst under her current rules.  In fact, she's still slightly above average according to my standards, but not much.  I'd rather have her than Dr. Vinnie, Rex, Dexter, Amanda, Charlie, Gloria the author, Lola the actress, Jim Culver and even Sister. (You mileage may vary.)  She's at least as good as: Luke, Ashcan, Diane the Cultist, Harvey the professor, Michael, Tony and Mark the soldier.

Devoured? That's hard to do!

 



#15 Frank

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 07:17 AM

Well, definitely not better than Leo. The fact that he can stop a damage to Sanity or Stamina to any character no matter where he is or where they are. Leo is the man, and stands up next to top tier investigators like Mandy and Darrel. Even if Lily healed herself twice as fast as Leo protects any character, she still wouldn't be nearly as good. Healing only matters if you're injured, and the investigator who needs it most varies on a turn by turn basis.

 

-Frank



#16 Elric91

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 11:25 AM

You seemed to miss my point entirely mageith. An earlier post implied she was overpowered, and this nerf brought her in line with the rest, and that simply is not true.

Now she is pretty weak in my opinion. All she can do is fight well against monsters. Monsters can be killed well with many investigators, and Lily's lack of resources makes her pretty much the groups monster basher, and nothing else. Gates must be closed, rooms sealed, etc, there has never been a shortage of ways to bash monsters into oblivion.

Its true she is above agerage with regards to monster bashing, but in all other areas she is now below the average. She has no resources, can only heal herself when other doctor type investigators can heal anyone, and you think thats above average compared to the doctors like Leo who can prevent san/sta hits to anyone, anywhere at all?

I agree with frank, no way on earth was Lily better than Leo, even pre-nerf. And mandy was way better too, in my opinion.  She can give the equivalant of up to a 16 dice combat test with her re-roll ability to any character that starts with a gun, once per turn, and thats better than 9 unmodified from Lily, ill take mandy any day.

I think we can agree to dis-agree on this one.



#17 mageith

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 12:41 PM

Elric: You seemed to miss my point entirely mageith. An earlier post implied she was overpowered, and this nerf brought her in line with the rest, and that simply is not true.

Mageith: I don't think I missed your point.  I just don't agree with it.  I remember an earlier post implying she was underpowered. I just defended her and said she was adequately powered or just about right in relation to other characters.

Elric: Now she is pretty weak in my opinion. All she can do is fight well against monsters. Monsters can be killed well with many investigators, and Lily's lack of resources makes her pretty much the groups monster basher, and nothing else. Gates must be closed, rooms sealed, etc, there has never been a shortage of ways to bash monsters into oblivion.

Elric: Its true she is above agerage with regards to monster bashing, but in all other areas she is now below the average. She has no resources, can only heal herself when other doctor type investigators can heal anyone, and you think thats above average compared to the doctors like Leo who can prevent san/sta hits to anyone, anywhere at all? 

Mageith: No. I think she's comparable to Leo.  Leo's not a doctor, but he can help others by preventing a stamina or sanity.  A stamina or sanity is worth 2 points.  Lily can protect herself by restoring a sanity or stamina -- Also worth 2 points.  Other than that Leo is average.  Lily can bring 9 points of unmodified damage to the fray. That's worth four dice.  I'd rather have Lily than Leo, even now, but both are assets to the party.  If their only difference between the two was the ability to heal herself and/or others, then of course Leo would be a little more superior.

Elric: I agree with frank, no way on earth was Lily better than Leo, even pre-nerf. And mandy was way better too, in my opinion.  She can give the equivalant of up to a 16 dice combat test with her re-roll ability to any character that starts with a gun, once per turn, and thats better than 9 unmodified from Lily, ill take mandy any day.

Mageith: I still maintain Prenerf Lily was twice as good as Leo or nearly so. Of course, that was only true if she put herself out there and actually fought monsters.  I don't get your point about gathering clues and closing gates.  Most investigators can gather clues on the same basis and with a 5 Fight, she can close gates just fine.   Darrell, Wilson and Kate can avoid the horrible gate and monster.  Rex and Diana can generate clues.  Everyone else is pretty much on a par.  Most investigators have a 5 in lore or fight, but not all.

Mageith: Mandy's one of the three best.  Leo's not.  I'll take Mandy over Lily too.

Elric: I think we can agree to dis-agree on this one.

Mageith: OK



#18 Elric91

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 03:40 PM

One of my personal favorites is the dreamer. I know he isnt really that powerful, but by checking dimensional symbols on gates, he can pop out of any portal on the board and sometimes he gets some pretty nice monster un-summons on strong monsters, after he closes their gates that have matching dimensional symbols.

Sometimes we can get some pretty interesting zero danger monster kills that way. Plus i just like his character concept.



#19 Frank

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 08:00 PM

mageith: Leo's not a doctor, but he can help others by preventing a stamina or sanity.  A stamina or sanity is worth 2 points.  Lily can protect herself by restoring a sanity or stamina -- Also worth 2 points.

That assertion is wholly unjustifiable. Preventing the loss of a Stamina or Sanity is better than healing one after the fact, because it can stop people from going to the Hospital. So for example: if our Professor was exposed to one or two Stamina loss then he would be at the same point if Leo prevented a loss or he got healed by 1 afterward. But he would be in a much better situation if he suffered a loss of 3 and had one prevented vs. suffering a loss of 3 and having healing available next upkeep. That fact alone makes Leo far superior to the doctor, the psychiatrist, or the martial artist - his power essentially increases people's turn by turn resilience, and the others don't. But beyond that, providing your bonus to any character who needs it is better than providing it to yourself.

 

Lily's power doesn't do anything at all on those turns in which she wins her fights, goes shopping, or has an uneventful time in another world. If she personally isn't injured, her power is useless next turn. For Leo's power to be invalidated, every single other character has to go uninjured for a whole turn. In a two player game, his ability is useless half as often. In a six player game, his ability is useless one sixth as often.

 

Even if Lily's power were twice as big as Leo's, it still wouldn't be as good because Leo's works to save people instead of cleaning up next upkeep, and Leo's works to save who needs saving instead of just saving Lily. It's a cooperative game, and cooperative powers are better than selfish powers. Full stop.

 

-Frank



#20 thorgrim

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 11:10 PM

But.... Leo's ability only works on losses. Lily's can heal after a cost. While still not as grand as being able to reduce it for anyone, it still has its uses.






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