Elric writes: The wording on the card says "Each time lily increases max stamina, she gains 1 point of stamina. Each time lily increases max sanity, she gains 1 point of sanity" Sooo, if we agree that we only calculate based on the final position of the slider, the question we ask ourselves after we finish our slider movement is : Did she increase? Whether she Increased by one or two does not matter. if she increased by one, she gaines one. if she increased by two, she still gains one, because the wording makes the amount of the increase irrelavant.
Mageith: Actually that's how I play here, one maximum per turn, but after reading everything here, I'm not sure what the new intention is. I think Kevin's fix was to prevent gaining one sanity and stamina per turn by not really doing anything. Now when you increase sanity for example, you risk lowering stamina and vice versa. We play with her a lot and she's just an average investigator, barely, with the heal one stamina/stamina fix.
Elric: That being said, she certainly is not the weakest investigator in the game, even after the nerf, and on that point i can agree. Was she the most powerful?
Mageith: No. Daisy, Wendy and Mandy are still definitely more powerful. Others are comparable.
Elric: Well, after reading the investigators, i can see how she might seem out of balance with the rest of the investigators, but Its hard to compare them. Because of the spirit of the cuthulu game, not all investigators are there for the same reason; some are there, such as the bounty hunter, to collect cash. Others, like the dreamer, are excellent gate closers. Then add the reporter who draws 2 location cards when he draws location cards, and chooses the best one. He is a great clue gathering, location searcher.
Mageith: Unfixed she's definitely better than average. I agree with you on Darrell, the reporter. He's a superior investigator. If his rule stops even one gate and monster, he's done his job.
Luke, the dreamer, is at best average. It depends on how you play his rule. If he can immediately go back into an Other World on the turn he arrives, he's average. If he has to wait a turn, he's barely average. If he has to sneak out and back in, he's not even average.
The bounty hunter is probably average. He's needs a much better weapon to be a real fighter and to do that he probably needs more than his starting funds.
Elric: Look at Mandy Thomson's ability to allow ANY investigator, anywhere at all, to completely re-roll a failed check, using all the dice, including ones from clue tokens. And thats useable once per turn. Top that off with mandy starting off with more items than lily. Now for the "combat" characters. Many of them either start off with a high fight rating of at least 4, like Joe Diamond and Wilson Richards,
Mageith: I don't consider 4 a high fight, but average. For the most part Fight has to be paired with Will. You need at least 4 Will and 5 Fight to be above average in the combat area, IMO.
Elric writes: ...and both of those characters start with a gun, and either twice Lilly's starting cash or more than twice her possessions, including a combination of unique items and common items, increasing the odds of another weapon being drawn or a nifty gizmo.
Mageith: Lilly starts with better than either Wilson or Joe. As I said before, you can have upto 9 unmodificable Fight/Combat from the get go. She ready to go against most medium monsters which is about as good as any of the Fighters are. Unlike most of the other fighters she can handle the craziness with her ability to heal her sanity.
Elric writes Look at Michael Mcglen. $8 starting cash, fight skill of 6, speed of five, and starts with a tommy gun.
Mageith: And but 3 sanity and I think 3 Will (maybe 4). He's the model of the fighter who can't stand the craziness. This really becomes apparent if you've added in the Kingsport monsters which nearly doubles the 2 toughness monsters in the game and chances the mix of monsters radically.
Elric writes: Now for Lily, Unarmed combat rating of 9, and can self heal sanity and stamina drains, and can set her sanity/stamina to variable levels. How often have we seen combat characters exceed a combat rating of 9 in a game of arkham horror? its not very hard, the main bonus here is its un-affected by phisical and magical reductions and immunities. But if memory serves, many of those have high sanity hits, and if lily maxes her fight skill, she will fail each and every one because of her horrible willpower.
Mageith: In this respect she's no different than any other fighter, is she? ALL the fighters need help, but some of them can get it easier thanothers. It's difficult to improve Ganster McGlen for example, becauses there's little that easily repairs sanity or increases Will. At least Lily can heal sanity losses and its built in.
Elric writes: I dis-agree that Lily was too overpowered. She had less gear than other "combat" characters, and less cash. That was the balancing factor. The only thing she really had was that self heal and the unresistable combat vaule, not something begging for a nerf from what i can see.
Mageith: She still wouldn't be top tier even if not nerfed. However since she can directly be compared to such characters as the doctor, the psycholgist and Leo the Leader, she was clearly better (more than twice as good) as they are. I think it's that that caused all the uproar.
Elric writes: And remember, if she does the toggle self heal, as per the old rules, she cannot adjust any of her other skills, and thats definately a drawback, as i usually am moving my skills around alot to fit the circumstances. So she had less flexability than the other characters did,
Mageith: Several investigators have a Focus of 1. She has average focus. She just has more choices. To me that's more flexibility, not less. Many investigators must spend their clues or other resources to gain resources. For example the psychic should hold back 2 clues to stop Mythos cards or Charlie the Politican should hold back clues to stop terror rising. Joe the Private Investigator needs to hold back clues in order to take advange of his special skill, too.
Elric writes: ...with skills that tended to be more "locked in". Still, she could do worse, and i agree she is still not the weakest character in the game, but i do not feel she was so overpowered that she needed a nerf. I have played Lily in several of the more difficult games with the hard GOO's, and i have been devoured and eaten just as many times as the other players.
Mageith: Under current rules or her original rules? She wasn't the best and now isn't the worst under her current rules. In fact, she's still slightly above average according to my standards, but not much. I'd rather have her than Dr. Vinnie, Rex, Dexter, Amanda, Charlie, Gloria the author, Lola the actress, Jim Culver and even Sister. (You mileage may vary.) She's at least as good as: Luke, Ashcan, Diane the Cultist, Harvey the professor, Michael, Tony and Mark the soldier.
Devoured? That's hard to do!