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Encountering a Portcullis


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#1 Agamemnon666

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 04:52 AM

Hi there,

I have got a problem with the portcullis rules. The rules (page 8) say, that if you want to go through a portcullis you will have to make a strength test. But what should I do when I encounter an unexplored space and have to draw a Dungeon Chamber and this Dungeon Chamber is a portcullis with the entering arrow behind the portcullis. Should I obey the portcullis chamber rules on page 31 or should I first roll for the portcullis following the rules on page 8. 

Both ways could make sense, if I do not have to make a strength test when I draw this Dungeon Room and enter it, it could be that the portcullis is some kind of a trap and closes when I entered the room and take a Dungeon Card. Otherwise we could say, that if I encounter a chamber with a portcullis, that I will have to make at first a strength test to see if I am able to enter the portcullis room and then take a Dungeon Card after a successful strength test. Does anybody have a solution?? 



#2 SoylentGreen

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 04:56 AM

I think that particular room you actually enter the room - and to backtrack you will have to open the portcullis.

So yes - in a nutshell you enter the room and the door has closed behind you... I do not believe you need to make a strength test to actually enter that tile.

 



#3 SoylentGreen

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 05:04 AM

Page 31 should hopefully clear it up in the manual. (PDF version of the manual - not sure if they follow the same page #'s.)



#4 Agamemnon666

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 05:46 AM

SoylentGreen said:

Page 31 should hopefully clear it up in the manual. (PDF version of the manual - not sure if they follow the same page #'s.)

Yes, I know but I mean a portcullis room with more than one entry. The rules on page 31 says that the next turn is important, so thiscould be an indication that the portcullis strength test initial counts at the the next turn and if you wish to move through it or you choose to take an alternative route through another entry if there are more than once!? Thx...



#5 SoylentGreen

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 05:51 AM

Take that room on page 31 - BUT - add an open passageway at the top of it. (I believe these tiles exist)

You enter into the room - portcullis closes behind you. You encounter the room. End of turn. On the next turn - you can freely move through the open passageway on the top of the tile - but if you choose to backtrack - you must first pass the strength check to get through the portcullis.

That's how I've played and read it. Anyone else?



#6 SinisterCheshire

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 06:02 AM

I'm pretty sure Soylents interpretation is correct.

 When you enter an unexplored room through the portcullis ( As far as I can tell, all portcullis rooms require you to enter through the portcullis on the initial entry ), then it immediately slams shut behind you preventing escape from a monster combat.

However, every OTHER time you encounter a portcullis ( when the tile was already explored territory ), you must pass the strength test to go through it.



#7 SoylentGreen

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 06:09 AM

SinisterCheshire said:

I'm pretty sure Soylents interpretation is correct.

 When you enter an unexplored room through the portcullis ( As far as I can tell, all portcullis rooms require you to enter through the portcullis on the initial entry ), then it immediately slams shut behind you preventing escape from a monster combat.

However, every OTHER time you encounter a portcullis ( when the tile was already explored territory ), you must pass the strength test to go through it.

Just to further clarify...

So lets suppose the tile I described. Portcullis on the bottom - open on the top. If you were to exit the top - and circle all the way around it and come back up through the bottom - would you agree that you would need to open the portcullis on the bottom of the tile to enter into the room? BECAUSE the tile has already been explored. (I know this is extremely hypothetical - I can't think of a time when I would circle all the way around like this - unless some funny catacomb movements take place.)



#8 SinisterCheshire

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 07:07 AM

SoylentGreen said:

SinisterCheshire said:

 

I'm pretty sure Soylents interpretation is correct.

 When you enter an unexplored room through the portcullis ( As far as I can tell, all portcullis rooms require you to enter through the portcullis on the initial entry ), then it immediately slams shut behind you preventing escape from a monster combat.

However, every OTHER time you encounter a portcullis ( when the tile was already explored territory ), you must pass the strength test to go through it.

 

 

Just to further clarify...

So lets suppose the tile I described. Portcullis on the bottom - open on the top. If you were to exit the top - and circle all the way around it and come back up through the bottom - would you agree that you would need to open the portcullis on the bottom of the tile to enter into the room? BECAUSE the tile has already been explored. (I know this is extremely hypothetical - I can't think of a time when I would circle all the way around like this - unless some funny catacomb movements take place.)

Thats exactly how it works. Once the tile is explored, the portcullis always remains down and requires a strength check to pass in either direction.



#9 SoylentGreen

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 07:20 AM

SinisterCheshire said:

 

Thats exactly how it works. Once the tile is explored, the portcullis always remains down and requires a strength check to pass in either direction.

YAY! I was bound to get one right this week!!! :)



#10 Agamemnon666

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 08:35 AM

Thank you all, that seems to be the solution. Your interpretations addicting sense, now I how to handle such situations... :)



#11 Aged One

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 02:40 PM

Not sure I see the portcullis this way. The rules for the portcullis, on page 8, are quite specific, and make no mention as to whether or not you are dealing with a "dungeon chamber" or a "unexplored space".

"Moving Through a Portcullis

If a Hero attempts to move through a portcullis, he must fire make a successful Strength test . . . If the Hero succeeds, he continues his movement as normal . . ."

I don't see in the rules an exception for entering a dungeon chamber with a portcullis for the first time, i.e., a previously unexplored dungeon space, without taking the test.



#12 SoylentGreen

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 02:57 PM

If you were trying to leave a tile with a Portcullis - I think we all understand that you have to pass a check to move through the portcullis... but:

"Player Turns
DungeonQuest is played over a series of turns, beginning with
the First Player and then continuing to the left. When a Hero
takes his turn, he must perform one of the following actions:
 

Move into an adjacent space
 

OR


Search the space he is in


After a hero performs one of these actions, play continues
clockwise around the table."

If you are able to freely leave a tile - you move into the next room - even the arrow is past the portcullis on the tiles...

 

Also - and more clear hopefully is the tile instruction for the Portcullis on page 31: "Draw a Dungeon card. You cannot escape from Monsters while you are in this chamber; you must attack instead. On your next turn, if you choose to move through the portcullis, you must test Strength. If you succeed, you lift the portcullis and move normally. If you fail, the portcullis is too heavy and you must stay in the chamber. Next turn, you may try to lift the portcullis again or may exit through a different passage."

I didn't need to quote that much - but - the first direction for that tile is to "Draw a Dungeon Card" - there is nothing that says you have to first open the gate - the room pictured on Page 31 would be really pointless otherwise - as who would enter that room willingly?



#13 Aged One

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 04:00 PM

OKay. So, if the entry arrow pointed to a door, rather than a portcullis, you would not have to open that door either?



#14 SoylentGreen

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 04:13 PM

Aged One said:

OKay. So, if the entry arrow pointed to a door, rather than a portcullis, you would not have to open that door either?

Are there any tiles that have an arrow that point to a closed door? The picture of the portcullis that started this discussion has the arrow after the door... Are there any tiles with closed doors that would put the arrow BEFORE the door and not AFTER like the pictures portcullis?



#15 Aged One

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 05:41 PM

Where is that "light bulb goes on" symbol?



#16 SinisterCheshire

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 03:40 AM

There aren't any tiles that point to a closed door when you enter. There are plenty of tiles with doors that you have to exit through. This can easily present a situation where you have a closed door followed by a portcullis.

But in that case, you pass through the door, and then the portcullis slams shut behind you on your first entrance into the room.  any subsequent movement through that entrance will require a strength check and a door check. A failure of either will require you to stay in the room you were trying to leave, and make both checks again.



#17 Shmoozer

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Posted 10 September 2010 - 01:33 AM

For me it is/was pretty clear that you have to do a strength test first, and if you fail to do so, you can not actually enter the room. The reason for this was a long look at the "closed door and then straight after a portcullis explanation:

In order to move into the adjacent chamber, Hugo must open the door and lift the portcullis. The door is in Hugo’s current chamber, so he must open it before proceeding to the portcullis.
Hugo draws a card from the Door deck and encounters a “Hidden Trap” card. After the trap is resolved, Hugo’s turn ends without proceeding to the portcullis.
On Hugo’s next turn, he attempts to move into the adjacent chamber again. He must first draw another card from the Door deck. 
This time he draws a “Door Opens” card and can now try to lift the portcullis.
Hugo succeeds at testing his Strength and finally moves into the adjacent chamber.
If Hugo failed the Strength test for the portcullis and wanted to move into the chamber again next turn, he would have to start the process again by drawing a new Door card.

So for my point of view, (removing the closed door, since even if you succeed in opening it you still have to do a strength test to open it) you are in the room you started from (so you have only placed the new tile in front of your hero but you're not standing on it), and have to do a strength test; if you fail you are still in the same room, only if you succeed you will enter the new room and encounter it.



#18 SinisterCheshire

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Posted 10 September 2010 - 02:24 AM

Shmoozer said:

For me it is/was pretty clear that you have to do a strength test first, and if you fail to do so, you can not actually enter the room. The reason for this was a long look at the "closed door and then straight after a portcullis explanation:

In order to move into the adjacent chamber, Hugo must open the door and lift the portcullis. The door is in Hugo’s current chamber, so he must open it before proceeding to the portcullis.
Hugo draws a card from the Door deck and encounters a “Hidden Trap” card. After the trap is resolved, Hugo’s turn ends without proceeding to the portcullis.
On Hugo’s next turn, he attempts to move into the adjacent chamber again. He must first draw another card from the Door deck. 
This time he draws a “Door Opens” card and can now try to lift the portcullis.
Hugo succeeds at testing his Strength and finally moves into the adjacent chamber.
If Hugo failed the Strength test for the portcullis and wanted to move into the chamber again next turn, he would have to start the process again by drawing a new Door card.

So for my point of view, (removing the closed door, since even if you succeed in opening it you still have to do a strength test to open it) you are in the room you started from (so you have only placed the new tile in front of your hero but you're not standing on it), and have to do a strength test; if you fail you are still in the same room, only if you succeed you will enter the new room and encounter it.

This is all true, however remeber, encountering a portcullis is different from encountering a room. This is significiant when entering an unexplored space. As the rules state, you do not encounter the room until it is explored, (drawn and placed).  Once it is placed, you are in that room and the effects of said room take place.  the idea of the portcullis is to trap you in the room IF you encounter a monster in that room. The portcullis snaps shut when enter, preventing you from escape.  It stats in the card desrciption that you have to draw a Dungeon Card when  you draw the porcullis room tile. If you were not in that room, you could not draw the tile, and the instructions on the tile would be invalid as you never actually entered the room (assuming you failed the strength test)

Although its not specificaly mentioned in the rules, (although it states in the card explanation that you may not escape monsters while in a room with a portcullis), it would seem that if you enter the chamber through a passage where there is no portcullis, you must escape through the way you came. Hence you should be allowed to escape in that direction even if there is a portucllis in a different exit from the room.



#19 harobed

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 08:34 AM

SinisterCheshire said:

 

This is all true, however remeber, encountering a portcullis is different from encountering a room. This is significiant when entering an unexplored space. As the rules state, you do not encounter the room until it is explored, (drawn and placed).  Once it is placed, you are in that room and the effects of said room take place.  the idea of the portcullis is to trap you in the room IF you encounter a monster in that room. The portcullis snaps shut when enter, preventing you from escape.  It stats in the card desrciption that you have to draw a Dungeon Card when  you draw the porcullis room tile. If you were not in that room, you could not draw the tile, and the instructions on the tile would be invalid as you never actually entered the room (assuming you failed the strength test)

Although its not specificaly mentioned in the rules, (although it states in the card explanation that you may not escape monsters while in a room with a portcullis), it would seem that if you enter the chamber through a passage where there is no portcullis, you must escape through the way you came. Hence you should be allowed to escape in that direction even if there is a portucllis in a different exit from the room.

I have struggled to make sense of the rules for encountering a portcullis and take on board what has already been written in this post. However, I am not sure about the bold I have highlighted from the quote above and would appreciate comments on my interpretation below.

If you attempt to move into an unexplored space the rules state (p.8 col.1) "Heroes step over entry arrows to enter the chamber". This suggests that for a "Portcullis" chamber you don't enter the chamber until you have passed the portcullis (since the entry arrow is positioned after the portcullis). This would mean applying the rules for "Moving through a Portcullis" (p.8 col.2) before applying the portcullis chamber rules on p.31?

It would appear that the portcullis drops immediately after you have passed through it, since once you are in the portcullis chamber and decide to leave by that route "you must test strength. If you succeed, you lift the portcullis ..." (rules p.31)

If the chamber you enter has a portcullis, a hero cannot escape from a monster. This appears to apply to both single passage entry dead end chambers and multi passage entry chambers, even if only one passage contains a portcullis? (pp12 & 31 of rules)?

 



#20 argente

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 06:50 PM

The rules aren't clear enough with different points.  This is one of them.

Personally, we play as the portcullis close behind you.

This is why:

Page 9 - Hugo's example.  Note that in the picture the tile he is moving into is already in place in the game.  Note that in the example of Lindel's movement (same page), the space where Lindel's moving into has no tile, and in the picture below, they now put the rotating room, so the rulebook uses a different design to show movement into an unexplored space.  In page 27 Tatianna moves into an explored space to show special movement to a bridge tile.  As she moves into a previously explored space, the tile is already in the picture.   So...  Hugo's example must refer to movement into an explored space.  The portcullis was already there and shut in a previous turn.  It needs the test.

 

Page 31 - Chamber description of the portcullis chamber.  You're moving into an unexplored space, so the tile is put into play and you move into.  The portcullis shut behind, you need the test to go back and exit.  It's a trapped dead end.  What is the point in this chamber if the portcullis is already down?  Unless you're forced to test even when you see it's a dead end...  in that case you need to test to enter and then to exit.  But I agree with Soylentgreen in that the portcullis chambers can be different in having 0-1-2-3 more exits, but the mechanic is still the same. 

Despite the possible interpretation that you're forced to test even when you see the dead end beyond the portcullis  (would it not be an important point enough to be put in the rules?? )...  I'm sure that pg 9 example denotes moving into an explored tile, and pg 31 example move into a just-being-explored tile, and the description tile does not say "you must test to enter the chamber",... the game does not have any chamber that impedes you from entering into in.  Maybe to go back next turn, but not entering into the one you just revealed, it should be an anomaly so important in the game that it would be clarified. 






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