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Can influence be used for anything else besides voting?


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#1 Slickxero

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 11:41 AM

I just picked up TI3 yesterday and have been trying to learn it with my friends. There's three of us and one is very concerned about exhausting his planets for resources when he doesn't know all the effects of influence. Could someone tell me what influence can be used for besides voting?



#2 Steve-O

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 04:24 PM

Slickxero said:

I just picked up TI3 yesterday and have been trying to learn it with my friends. There's three of us and one is very concerned about exhausting his planets for resources when he doesn't know all the effects of influence. Could someone tell me what influence can be used for besides voting?

Some objective cards require you to spend influence in the Status Phase.  Remember, though, that you can also spend Trade Goods as influence or resources at any time, so if you have those you can use them instead of planets.  You can't use Trade Goods to vote, though, because you don't actually *spend* influence to vote, you just count up what you've got.

There are probably also some political/action cards that get you to spend influence, although I can't think of any off the top of my head.

In my experience, voting is the big important reason to keep influence around, and that's assuming you care to vote at all.  Some people just abstain all the time.



#3 DavidG55311

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 08:12 PM

Influence may be spent to:

 

Achieve objectives

Buy command counters (with logistics or leadership)

Use diplomacy I/II strategy card

Touch of Genius action card (duplicate the effects of any action card in the discard pile, 3 influence)

 

 

Basic turn flow for me:

 

Is there an objective I want to try and accomplish? (I need to save my influence until the end of the round)

Is there a law that I want to try and help pass? (do I need influence for it?)

If no, how many command counters can I buy? (they are perhaps the most valuable commodity in the game, without them, no actions)

Do I want to use diplomacy to annex a planet? (expensive if you can't get a decent planet in exchange for your influence/command counter)

Do I have the Touch of Genius card?

If there is nothing for me to spend influence on, all planets may now be freely spent as resources without worrying about the influence value.



#4 Esperologist

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 03:59 AM

My group looks for two things before exhausting planets that have influence.

1) Is Assembly in play, and has it been activated yet if it is?

2) If it is in play, and not activated... do they have enough influence to stop me from voting in something crazy.

I managed to get the wormholes closed one game and ended only retaining the Wormhole Nexus. I have also managed to accidently get myself butchered (accidently, in the non-expansion rules), and brought doom to my alliance.

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I would like to refute Steve-O's statement that Trade Goods can be used as Influence or Resources for the purpose of claiming Objectives (by purchasing).

At least one objective asks for Influence.

At least one objective asks for Resources.

At least one objective asks for Trade Goods.

If there is a seperate objective that asks for Trade Goods in particular, they should not be usable for the other objectives. I've had one of each objective show up, and one that asked for Influence OR Resources (not a mix of the two).

I don't have the game available to check... but I'm fairly certain there is an action card or race... maybe the trader's special tech... that can spend trade goods to gain extra votes during Assembly.

I checked the rule books online (original and expansion), and although the original says trade goods can be spent as influence, it does not at all say when. It just says they cannot be used as votes. That leaves it to just Logistics (original) or Leadership (Expansion) and Diplomacy II (Expansion). I was unable to find any clarification in the errata.

I guess it really comes down to what 'the house' decides... unless an official makes a call on it. (ie: Errata update)



#5 DavidG55311

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 12:38 PM

Trade goods can spent be as either resources or influence.

This can be done whenever you want, but does not work for voting.

The action card you are thinking about is from the expansion and is called bribery and adds 1 vote per trade good.

The objectives, "spend 10 influence" for example, most certainly can use trade goods to meet part of the influence cost.

If playing with the expansion you can also use political cards to cover some of the costs.

When playing with the expansion you may spend political cards as if they were trade goods which can be used as resources or influence.

It is worth noting that the objective that say "spend 10 resources or 10 influence" you MUST choose one or the other.

You are not allowed to spend, for instance, Mecatol Rex and gain 7 towards the objective.

Mecatol Rex would be worth 1 towards 10 resources or 6 towards 10 influence.



#6 Steve-O

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 02:41 AM

Esperologist said:

 

I would like to refute Steve-O's statement that Trade Goods can be used as Influence or Resources for the purpose of claiming Objectives (by purchasing).

At least one objective asks for Influence.

At least one objective asks for Resources.

At least one objective asks for Trade Goods.

If there is a seperate objective that asks for Trade Goods in particular, they should not be usable for the other objectives. I've had one of each objective show up, and one that asked for Influence OR Resources (not a mix of the two).

 

 

You are inferring a restriction that does not exist.  The Objectives that ask you to spend Trade Goods must be paid for with Trade Goods.  The objectives taht ask you to spend Resources (or Influence) can be paid for with a mixture of planets and/or Trade Goods.  By your own admission, there's nothing in the rules to prevent this interpretation.  Why invent a restriction that makes it harder to win?  As long as everybody is playing with the same understanding, it's still fair and square.

There are some stores that accept cash or credit card.  There are other stores that only accept cash.  Because there exist stores that only accept cash, is it logical to assume that no stores will accept credit cards?  Even though you've seen a general printed declaration that credit cards can be used in place of cash?

If you want to restrict your own options for wining the game for no good reason, that's your business.  I won't tell you how to play this game.  But the official rules are quite clear, and there's no reason to suspect spending TGs as resources or influence would be forbidden just because there's also an option to spend TGs as TGs.

That said, you are correct about the single objective which asks for 10 influence OR 10 resources.  You must choose one or the other.  You CAN, however, spend TGs as either, so if you chose to pay 10 influence, you could pay that by exhausting 6 influence worth of planets and then spending 4 TGs to make up the difference.  Or you could just throw out 10 TGs and say it doesn't matter which one you picked.

 



#7 sigmazero13

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 11:59 AM

 I'm with Steve - the rules are pretty clear that Trade Goods can be spent ANY TIME you would spend an Influence or a Resource.  This includes objectives.  Yes, there are objectives that you must explicitely spend Trade Goods, but it should be noted that they are "less" than the amount of resources or influence.  For example, there's a Stage I objective of "Spend 6 Trade Goods".  The Resource/Influence Stage I cards require you to spend 10!  Thus, while you could spend Trade Goods for those, you'd be spending more altogether than just raw Trade Goods, but you have the option to "split" between Resources and Trade Goods (or go 100% with one or the other).

Even the objective that says to spend 4 Trade Goods, 3 influence, and 3 resources; you can spend Trade Goods for any Influence or Resource, so you COULD spend 7 TGs and 3 resources and qualify for it.  Or spend 10 Trade Goods.  Or spend 6 Trade Goods, 2 Influence, and 2 Resources.

Trade Goods are, by intent, flexible means of spending for other things - and they can be spent, as the rules say, ANY TIME  you would be spending Influence or Resources, including objectives.



#8 Esperology

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Posted 25 December 2011 - 10:20 PM

I know this has been a year, but I would just like to point out that were I was infering a rule that I had not seen, Steve was also infering a rule without full support.

I just went through the rule book again, and on page 26, under 'The Objective Cards', in the third paragraph... there is a clear example of trade goods being perfectly fine to spend on the resource objective.

I concede that I was wrong in this matter.

However, I request in the future that full support be brought to bear, as my argument was valid if the rule did not specificaly specify.
My view point was that taking an objective was not a form of 'purchasing' with production or influence, but a matter of a show of power by having access to such supplies.
When my games group next plays TI3, I will make sure we are all adjusted to the proper rule on this as stated in the manual.



#9 Steve-O

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 04:30 AM

Esperology said:

 

I know this has been a year, but I would just like to point out that were I was infering a rule that I had not seen, Steve was also infering a rule without full support.

 

That's not true.  I was reading the rules as they are written and not adding anything else beyond what was written.  You, on the other hand, were observing the existence of objective cards that specifically ask for Trade Goods and then concluding that Trade Goods could not be spent for resources or influence on objective cards solely because there existed the possibility to spend Trade Goods as Trade Goods.  This last is a restriction which is not explicitly mentioned int he rules, and therefore constitutes an inference.  (An incorrect one, at that.)

Before this goes any further, let's make sure we both understand the meaning of the word "infer:"

verb (used with object)
1. to derive by reasoning; conclude or judge from premises or evidence: They inferred his displeasure from his cool tone of voice.
2. (of facts, circumstances, statements, etc.) to indicate or involve as a conclusion; lead to.
3. to guess; speculate; surmise.
4. to hint; imply; suggest.

By this definition (particularly number 1) you could say that was inferring something (based strictly on evidence, mind you)  However, the claim that I inferred anything "without full support" is both untrue and deliberately misleading.  I may not have quoted the direct rules passages in the interest of not spending two hours making a single forum post (an oversight I intend to correct for your apparently unforgiving benefit), but everything I said is fully supported by the text of the rulebook.  Nothing I said is taken from observation of game components and the speculation of what their existence might imply.

As a refresher, my entire argument was that you may spend a Trade Good in place of a resource or influence at any time you are asked to "spend" those things.  Specifically, you may do so when claiming objectives that ask you spend influence, in particular.  Here are all the relevant passages from the rulebook concerning spending trade goods as influence (or resources), please feel free to point out where my arguement adds anything beyond what is actually written in the text:

"The Trade Good Counters", TI3 rulebook page 5:

These counters represent the wealth and rewards of interstellar commerce. They are primarily obtained by active trade agreements while the Trade Strategy Card is being executed. A player's Trade Goods can be used as a direct substitute for either resources or influence, and are frequently used as currency among players to pay for bribes or other considerations.

"The Trade Good Counters", page 25:

Players may spend Trade Good counters from their Trade Goods area as a substitute for spending either one resource or one influence. In this way, a player can pay for a Dreadnought unit by spending 5 Trade Goods from his Trade Goods area, or by exhausting Planet Cards for 3 resources, and paying the remaining 2 resources with Trade Goods (or any combination thereof).

"The Objective Cards", page 26:

Some Objective Cards state “Now I…”. This requires a player to actually fulfill the requirement during the first step of the Status Phase. For example, one
Objective Card reads “I now spend 20 Resources (2 victory points).” In order for a player to receive these two victory points, he must have enough Trade Goods and unexhausted planets to spend 20 resources during the first step of the Status Phase.

Esperology said:

 

I just went through the rule book again, and on page 26, under 'The Objective Cards', in the third paragraph... there is a clear example of trade goods being perfectly fine to spend on the resource objective.

 

So, you accuse me of inferring something "without full rules support" and then imediately point out a section of the rules that provides exactly such support?  Please don't take offense, but is English perhaps not your first language?  You seem to be making a number of illogical and contradictory statements even within the same post.  Unless your purpose is to confuse matters by going in six different directions at once, I don't see how a calm and reasonable person could be arriving at the statements you have used.

 

Esperology said:

 

However, I request in the future that full support be brought to bear, as my argument was valid if the rule did not specificaly specify.

 

 

 

No, your argument was not valid.  It never was and never will be.  As a reminder, your argument (the one I was objecting to, at any rate) was that the existence of objective cards which ask a player to spend Trade Goods somehow proves you are not allowed to spend Trade Goods as influence or resources when claiming other objectives that ask for one of those two things.  There is nothing in the rules that even vaguely suggests such a limitation, and the lack of anyone to contradict you does not mean that your argument is correct.  It just means you're inferring rules that don't exist (most probably to support your own position in a game you were playing at the time, I'm guessing.)



#10 Treguard

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 03:57 AM

Dang open a window, cos someone just got smoked.



#11 Perfect stranger

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 08:52 AM

Please someone remind me never to get in an "Argument" with Steve-O .

Hell' just simply throw the "book(s) " at me :P

Those things can pack a punch  :)

Always enjoy Steve-O's  banter

Cheers Mate !

 



#12 Fnoffen

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 11:44 PM

I agree. I would not be surprised if Steve-O is a lawyer or paralegal.

Pax Magnifica Bellum Gloriosum





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