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Comments on Borg interview with the new Troll scenario


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#1 spacemonkeymafia

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 12:49 PM

Hi all,

The interview for the troll design was interesting and the new scenario is a boon to the community as well.   One thing that has been bothering me since first seeing the troll is why is he a blue banner?  Borg's interview states that he did not want his power to be based soley on the banner color and I've thought that the troll would have been the perfect first red banner.   The red banner fits with Borg's description of being a slow brute.  The 6 battle dice can still be used instead of the typical 4 and may have caused a little less confusion (I read one player's battle report where they confused the blue banner usually using 3 dice as some how influencing the 6 dice troll decision and causing some rules issues when fighting on hills).   I'm sure this was playtested and some flaw was discovered but I think it would have brought another level of uniqueness to this creature.  I can only reason that forcing the troll to never move more than 1 hex emphasized his greatest weakness (IMHO): ranged attacks. 

This brings me to my second comment...how to defeat the troll.  Mind you this is just theory as I have not played with the figure or proxies yet, but it seems to me the best way to deal with the troll is through ranged unit attacks or lore attack spells.  It seems that the weakest approach is a calvary attack as the calvary full units have one less figure and are very susceptible to the vicious counterattack.  With the immunity to bonus strikes, archers hit the troll as well as any other unit in a die to die comparison, furthering their advantage. 

Now this theory is not new, in fact I've read similar comments posted in this forum but I hope this begins some discussion based on actual gameplay experience.  Are calvary doomed when facing this creature?  How many archer units does it usually take to bring the troll to its knees?  One shotting the beast is likely rare but if you get the mother of all ranged combos (Darken the skies and Magic Missle) is the troll flat out doomed?  On the flip side, what are some devastating combos using the troll and what steps can one take to eliminate the ranged threat against him?

One last note to Mr Borg if he is reading... any chance of seeing the huge troll proto? ;-)



#2 Richard Borg

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 03:39 PM

Thanks for your comments... The Troll is very tough but not tough enough to receive a Creature's Red Banner. You will see a Red Banner Creature next year (2009) and when you do, you will really wish you never had…

I do not have possession of the huge troll figure that first was received by DoW. Perhaps someday I will have the opportunity to take a few pictures to post.

Richard Borg

spacemonkeymafia said:

Hi all,

The interview for the troll design was interesting and the new scenario is a boon to the community as well.   One thing that has been bothering me since first seeing the troll is why is he a blue banner?  Borg's interview states that he did not want his power to be based soley on the banner color and I've thought that the troll would have been the perfect first red banner.   The red banner fits with Borg's description of being a slow brute.  The 6 battle dice can still be used instead of the typical 4 and may have caused a little less confusion (I read one player's battle report where they confused the blue banner usually using 3 dice as some how influencing the 6 dice troll decision and causing some rules issues when fighting on hills).   I'm sure this was playtested and some flaw was discovered but I think it would have brought another level of uniqueness to this creature.  I can only reason that forcing the troll to never move more than 1 hex emphasized his greatest weakness (IMHO): ranged attacks. 

This brings me to my second comment...how to defeat the troll.  Mind you this is just theory as I have not played with the figure or proxies yet, but it seems to me the best way to deal with the troll is through ranged unit attacks or lore attack spells.  It seems that the weakest approach is a calvary attack as the calvary full units have one less figure and are very susceptible to the vicious counterattack.  With the immunity to bonus strikes, archers hit the troll as well as any other unit in a die to die comparison, furthering their advantage. 

Now this theory is not new, in fact I've read similar comments posted in this forum but I hope this begins some discussion based on actual gameplay experience.  Are calvary doomed when facing this creature?  How many archer units does it usually take to bring the troll to its knees?  One shotting the beast is likely rare but if you get the mother of all ranged combos (Darken the skies and Magic Missle) is the troll flat out doomed?  On the flip side, what are some devastating combos using the troll and what steps can one take to eliminate the ranged threat against him?

One last note to Mr Borg if he is reading... any chance of seeing the huge troll proto? ;-)



#3 selbuorT

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 10:04 PM

Hi there!

@ R.Borg
You should had to join our Xmas-Quiz on the german language Fan-Website www.worldofbattlelore.de.
We offered 3 Troll-Expansions to three winners

Well, the new Troll-Scenario:
I have a few questions this time again, like on the last scenario. But first of all a little statement to the troll itself:
Over here in Europe, here in the fan-community (german language) we discussed a lot about the troll. Most of all, the fans do disagree with the prize for on miniature an a paper-map. But that ist the hardest review.  DoW gave to some fans the Troll for free this summer, shortly after the news about the big deal between DoW and FFG. I never had bought that expansion. So I was happy to get it from DoW. In the meantime, the Troll might be delivered a few times more in Europe. But there are not more happy Fans as before.

But, it was a great idea to print two epic-scenarios on the map. Bad idea was, to print it as such a low qualtity  paper-version.
I would like to have more of this epic-maps! DoW announced that this should be just the first map of a season of epic-maps? Is there some more coming?

The Troll is a good blue creature. Hard enough to defeat. But you can! I battled a few scenarios against and with the troll.
The worest thing you could do is to attack him in close combat only. For example: In my fist Troll-scenario, I batteld, I attacked him with 2 blue, 1 red and a crossbow unit of the dwarves. 12 Miniatures started, 4 could pull back! The 2-3 hits, the Troll had to take, were healed directly during his counter strike.

So it would be best to attack him with a combination: Range combat and then close combat; or/and attack spells.

It is possible. Do not be afraid of the Troll. He never won a battle on his own.

 

The new Troll-scenario:
Last time and this time again: The pennants have to place on token at the creatures place at the war council. Why is it not showen in the scenario-PDF?

The next is, that each commander runs with level 2. But in the conditions it is sayed, that each commander should have 3+ Cards.
Little mistake? 5 cards would be right. There is no choice. Or the level 2 not has to be shown as fixed level?

Another question:
The victory conditions say that the French will gain one victory banner, if they occupie the bridge at the start of their turn.
That means on each turn, the French already occupie the bridge, they earn one victory banner? For example: the French already occupied the bridge for 3 turns, so they earn 3 victory banners?

Or does it mean as long as they occupie the bridge, they gain just 1 victoriy banner?

Or does it mean if the occupie the bridge at first in their turn, they earn once 1 victory banner?

It just a matter of understanding for me, because of the foreign language

 

Nice Job FFG, go ahed!

 

Merry Xmas to all form Germany

 

selbuorT
(One Admin of the www.worldofbattlelore.de)



#4 toddrew

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 10:34 PM

No official backing to these responses, just my thoughts on the matters :) :

 

selbuorT said:

The new Troll-scenario:
Last time and this time again: The pennants have to place on token at the creatures place at the war council. Why is it not showen in the scenario-PDF?

I think to make it more clear the creature should be present like the commander is as well.  The intent is that the troll counts as one of the 5 levels available for the pennants and having that be explicit, especially since that is being done for the commander, would be less confusing for those not as familiar with the rules.

selbuorT said:

The next is, that each commander runs with level 2. But in the conditions it is sayed, that each commander should have 3+ Cards.
Little mistake? 5 cards would be right. There is no choice. Or the level 2 not has to be shown as fixed level?

I believe the intent here is that the minimum level of the commander is 2.  Nothing preventing either player from using one of the 2 (pennants) or 3 (standards) other available tokens to bump the commander up to level 3.  Assuming that is the case, showing the level at "2+" would be appropriate, I think.

selbuorT said:

Another question:
The victory conditions say that the French will gain one victory banner, if they occupie the bridge at the start of their turn.
That means on each turn, the French already occupie the bridge, they earn one victory banner? For example: the French already occupied the bridge for 3 turns, so they earn 3 victory banners?

Or does it mean as long as they occupie the bridge, they gain just 1 victoriy banner?

Or does it mean if the occupie the bridge at first in their turn, they earn once 1 victory banner?

This is an issue I often have with Commands and Colors: Ancients.  The language on these objectives isn't always exact, but usually the meaning comes through.  In this case, there is only one blazon to be had.  Reading the objectives, that blazon is gained once the French (standards) occupy the bridge at the beginning of their turn.  Once gained, it cannot be lost, is how I read it. 

selbuorT said:

It just a matter of understanding for me, because of the foreign language

I wouldn't say that it's just because of the language barrier - certainly ambiguities abound ;)

 



#5 toddrew

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 10:47 PM

spacemonkeymafia said:

Are calvary doomed when facing this creature?  How many archer units does it usually take to bring the troll to its knees?  One shotting the beast is likely rare but if you get the mother of all ranged combos (Darken the skies and Magic Missle) is the troll flat out doomed?  On the flip side, what are some devastating combos using the troll and what steps can one take to eliminate the ranged threat against him?

Of course, cards obtained, tactics opponent uses, and luck of the die factor in to all of this, but, yeah, seems pretty clear to me that the way to hunt the troll is to take as many ranged pot-shots as possible, hope that brings it down, but at the very least knocks it down to needing one hit.  Then polish it off with the most forceful cc attack one can muster.

Darken the Skies and Magic Missiles, as with most any situation , would be a crippler as well.  Fireball is more potent against the Troll than the other creatures to date - not only the ~60% chance of the outright lore kill at level 3 (~50% at level 2, near 40% for level 1), but any color hits stick, instead of requiring the critical check.  Enchanted Mass Might should provide some help as well.  I guess what I'm saying is, when facing a troll, nice to have a wizard on ones side

For the flip side, some sort of human/goblin/dwarf shielding as one marches that beastie toward the front lines should be employed to envoy it safely and arrive at full strength.  Tying up ranged units by moving adjacent to them, surrounding the troll with friendlies, etc.



#6 selbuorT

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 11:21 PM

toddrew said:

 

This is an issue I often have with Commands and Colors: Ancients.  The language on these objectives isn't always exact, but usually the meaning comes through.  In this case, there is only one blazon to be had.  Reading the objectives, that blazon is gained once the French (standards) occupy the bridge at the beginning of their turn.  Once gained, it cannot be lost, is how I read it. 

I guess it should mean, that as long as an French Unit occupie the bridge, the French get this bonus-point (token).

This kind of condition is in the basisgame included in two or three scenarios. I'll treat it like this

 

 

WarCouncil:

If there is a possibility to set the level between 2 and 3 for the commander, than it is false to set Level 2 for the commander. There should be nothing placed in the WC if I am allowed to deside it on my own.

If there are two token placed for the commander, it means Level 2 = 5 Cards (not more, not less)!
It is missleading, if you place Level 2 in the WC and the condition 3+, wich means, your are allowed to set Leve 1, 2 or 3 - but not Level 0...

Anyway, maybe the voice of the creator will lighten up that darkness of ambiguty



#7 toddrew

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 11:51 PM

First off, it could very well be that any of your interpretations are what was intended - I am in complete agreement that ambiguities exist, which is why we are having this discussion :)

selbuorT said:

 

I guess it should mean, that as long as an French Unit occupie the bridge, the French get this bonus-point (token).

This kind of condition is in the basisgame included in two or three scenarios. I'll treat it like this  

I think that if the gaining of the blazon were a temporary condition it would explicitly say that once the bridge is vacated by the French (standards) or recaptured by the English (pennants), the blazon would return to the board.  That said, something explicitly saying that this is not the case would be nice :)

 

 selbuorT said:

WarCouncil:

If there is a possibility to set the level between 2 and 3 for the commander, than it is false to set Level 2 for the commander. There should be nothing placed in the WC if I am allowed to deside it on my own.

If there are two token placed for the commander, it means Level 2 = 5 Cards (not more, not less)!
It is missleading, if you place Level 2 in the WC and the condition 3+, wich means, your are allowed to set Leve 1, 2 or 3 - but not Level 0...

Yeah, if one is allowed to place 3 tokens on the commander, better to say "2+" rather than just the 2.  I think that it was handled the way it is in the adventure we are discussing the same in "Assaulting the Tourelles", adventure 10 in the base game booklet - minimum of one level on the commander was in the booklet showing a commander token with a level 1 on it, but level 2 or 3 was possible.

As for the "3+" by the command, I think that whenever the command is determined by the war council, one will see that.  If the command is given, that is when one will see the static 4, 5, 6, etc.

selbuorT said:

Anyway, maybe the voice of the creator will lighten up that darkness of ambiguty

Always welcome :)



#8 Caboose

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 03:40 AM

Hi Richard - welcome to the forums.   Just find it "funny" that Richard doesn't have own the troll himself ?? (Or maybe you are referring to the prototype perhaps.  If the actual troll release,  you would think that a small gesture from one of the companies (be it DoW or FFG) would be in order.)

Nice to know there will be a red creature released in the upcoming year.     With that being said, will there be some changes on how creatures will be chosen since there are some obvious creatures that have better powers than others.    Since with the current version of creatures, people would say that perhaps the Troll is maybe the more powerful of the blue banner type creatures and usually won't be killed in one shot due to it's regen ability.    And because of it's regen ability, it definitely has that unique ability over the Giant and EE who can be possible killed in 1 battle (if the dice are rolled correctly).   Would be nice to see if there are changes in the works for creatures.

As for the new scenario, I am surprised there is no creature icon placed on the pennant side like most scenarios have been for the lore council.  Hopefully that is just an oversight. 

As for the French side winning on this scenario, I think that will can happen.  Sure the French might have to take out 5 of the other units + hold the bridge for one turn to win.   Or they can try to take out the Troll.  Note that for the other side, there really isn't a lot of units for them to move in the middle.

Cab



#9 spacemonkeymafia

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 05:30 AM

Thanks for the response, Mr Borg!  Your comment regarding the troll not being powerful enough for a Red banner is quite a shift from how I imagined you work out the design issues on creatures.  I had been going on the assumption that the inherent power of the creature would be determined by the creature's level while the banner color just determined its strengths and weaknesses (green= raw power, but extremely maneuverable, etc).  This makes me wonder if we will see creatures with more than one level.  Depending on if a red banner creature has weaknesses like the previous creatures, it might just be that Red creatures are always level 2 to help pay for their fearsome might.  It will be interesting to see.

toddrew said:

For the flip side, some sort of human/goblin/dwarf shielding as one marches that beastie toward the front lines should be employed to envoy it safely and arrive at full strength.  Tying up ranged units by moving adjacent to them, surrounding the troll with friendlies, etc.

This is the tactic that I thought would work best, especially if you are shielding it with cavalry....once the troll is within striking range, the cavs can split out to base ranged units or work as clean up post Troll attack.

Caboose- I interpretted Mr Borg's statement as he does not possess the Troll prototype, not that he doesn't possess a Troll mini at all.



#10 Bilben

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 10:48 AM

Richard Borg said:

 

You will see a Red Banner Creature next year (2009) and when you do, you will really wish you never had…

 

 

Hmmm....you think maybe it will be a DRAGON?



#11 Richard Borg

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 08:22 AM

 New Troll-scenario Questions

Q: The pennants have to place on token at the creatures place at the war council. Why is it not in the scenario - PDF?

A: If you are a veteran BattleLore player, you are well aware that when a creature is on the battlefield one or more level tokens must be placed onto the camp's War Council. In the early adventure battle notes, the creature's icon was to alert players not to overlook this important rule.

Note as we progressed, most later expansion adventures do not have the creature icon in the battle notes (epic adventures and #30, 31, 34, 36) but as we continue with the transition process, perhaps we can once again place a creature level reminder on our future adventures. 

Q: Each commander runs with level 2, but in the conditions it states, that each commander should have 3+ Cards. Is this a mistake?

A:  Most of the time, when both camps have a War Council, the players may usually choose how to set up the council. In our two Troll web release adventures (#54 and #55) the Commander's level is specified, as a level 2, so there is no choice. Why the battle notes show 3+ is because this is how the current editor is set up. It will show a higher Commander's level but does not adjust the number of Command cards for the camp in the battle notes

So basically, if a camp does not have a level token on Commander's spot on the War Council the camp would take 3 Command cards. For each level token placed on the Commander's spot the number of Command cards the camp will have is increased by 1. A War Council with 1 level token on the Commander's spot will hold 3+ 1 = 4 Command cards. A War Council with 2 level tokens on the Commander's spot will hold 3+ 2 = 5 Command cards. A War Council with 3 level tokens on the Commander's spot will hold 3+ 3 = 6 Command cards.

Q: The victory conditions state, that the French will gain one victory banner, when they occupy the bridge at the start of their turn. How does this victory banner work?

A: At the start of the battle one Standard Blazon token is placed on the bridge. The French (standard banners) gain a victory banner if a French unit occupies the bridge at the start of the French player's turn. Remove the one Blazon token from the bridge and place it on the French Victory track. The Blazon once gained may not be lost.

Richard Borg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



#12 Aegis

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 11:23 AM

Bilben said:

Richard Borg said:

 

 

You will see a Red Banner Creature next year (2009) and when you do, you will really wish you never had…

 

 

 

 

Hmmm....you think maybe it will be a DRAGON?

 

Nah....a lone Goblin ninja.



#13 Caboose

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 01:44 AM

Richard thanks for the clarification on some of those items, namely the commander and the war council since some people might have thought that perhaps they could bump up the commander level to level 3 (but that is obviously not the case).   Since that 3+ for command cards definitely makes you believe you could and thus perhaps that editor be fixed to correct that shortcoming in the next version.

As for the Creature level not shown, I know that is should be there - from the standpoint that is the case for any War Council.  But at the same time, it just would be nice to have consistenancy from scenario to scenario.     Since the early ones did have that and it seems the latter ones do not.   And thus remove any possibility of "rules lawyering" due to it.   Like I said, I knew the creature icon should be there but it sure would be nice to see that info at a glance and avoid any possibility of conflict.

Also, perhaps you can chime in here about something that is an oddity.   As you are aware of, there were 3 Game Trade magazine Battlelore scenarios but they have no numbering to them.  Will they ever get such a number ??   Just curious.    (FYI - for those folks who aren't aware of it, you can obtain those scenarios at Battlelore Master site - www.battleloremaster.com  - here is the direct link & they are at the very bottom of the page   :   www.battleloremaster.com/adventures_official.html

Thanks again Richard - always nice to get info from the designer and possible items to come.  Now if we can only see those Castle type terrain hexes in the not so distant future !! 

Cab



#14 Aenea

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 07:10 PM

Maybe it's time for a new scenario editor:

macha.aeneagames.com/wip/screenshot4.png

macha.aeneagames.com/wip/screenshot1.png

 

Aenea






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