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#1 halo2994

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 06:29 AM

I just got Kingsport earlier this week and have been tryingt o figure out the rules.

I was wondering if someone could help my understand Charlie Kane's special ability.  He came up in the fist game we played and we just let him take allies when they went back the box.  this did not quite seem right however.

Has there been any official clarification on him, or at least unofficial concensus?



#2 jgt7771

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 06:54 AM

No.  Not yet.

Now RUN!  EVERYONE!!!  RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!


What was that noise?

#3 allstar64

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 11:03 AM

What our good friend who did the over the top performance means is that CK is probably the most contraversal investigator in the new set (Lilly is the only other one who comes close). Topics about him usually go on for several posts and don't actually conclude anything. While the way you guys played it is one of the interpretations of his ability it's usually agreed that it's way too strong and such not a viable interpretation.

While I could post alternative interpretations I ask you to search for past topics on the subject cause mearly mentioning one of theme is enough to light the fuse for a huge argument as about 20+ other people chime in with their interpretation or who they personally agree with ultimatly concluding nothing. Bottome line, let the owner of the game chose the interpretation he/she wants till something official has been anounced.



#4 mageith

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 12:02 PM

 http://www.fantasyfl...973.page#175476

Here's the old forum post for the debate if you are interested.  There's a little below too.

http://new.fantasyfl...d=1&efidt=26997

I think the "unffocial consensus" (It's not really a consensus but a plurality opinion.) is that Charlie can gain any ally he meets in any of the locations and can gain any ally if he buys one from Ma's that someone else doesn't have.  Many are still attempting to keep the total number of allies at 11, so trade in any boxed allies for allies from the ally deck. 

I do play the way you described, but you think is wrong.  It's a lot more political that way.

The plurality opinion makes Charlie a pretty weak investigator but your method might make him too strong or out of balance.

 



#5 Avi_dreader

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 12:07 PM

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

 

Maximum sanity is reduced by 2.



#6 halo2994

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 12:35 PM

Wow, my bad. 

i looked around on here before posting but i didn't find too much about him.   didn't mean to start anything.

Thank you for your help.



#7 Tibs

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 02:33 PM

Well don't feel bad. It's clear you had no idea the potential of this very topic. We just moved the forums and one of the last things that was discussed with any sort of furious passion on the old boards was the CK issue. Of course, nothing was concluded, and I don't feel to inject any of my opinion on the matter and knock the first domino over.

 

Just use your judgment, and recognize when an intepretation is outright absurd. I don't have the energy to dissect the semantics and implications of CK's ability.



#8 LinkN

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 06:17 PM

Just for anyone else that doesn't have Kingsport Horror:

Charlie Kain's special ability, Connections, reads "Any Phase: Charlie may gain Allies that have been returned to the box."

My own interpretation on this is simple: instead of being limited to the Allies in the Ally Deck, he can also grab any allies that have been returned to the box during the game.  Allies that didn't start in the original deck of 11 allies can't be gained, no matter what.

However, the rules for making the deck of 11 allies does say that the other allies are "returned to the box", so I wouldn't argue too strongly against interpreting that he can get any ally (as long as no one else has that ally, of course).  However, since there's no extra rules about how to handle this version, I personally think that this is unintended.



#9 Nephilim

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 03:13 AM

I agree with LinkN. When we first played CK we didn't remember that you put the other allies to the box, insteat we removed them from the game. We assumd that CK could retreve allies send to the box (of the 11 we drew during setup) if he could earn them with encounters or bought them at Ma's. We even made an exception if the allies where killed (southside strangler, lynching mob).
After we found out that you don't remove the other allies from game we didn't find a concensus anymore in our group :-(
So like many other we waiting for a official faq.

 



#10 Kobu

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 01:04 PM

People apparently love to take a clearly stated ability defined with a clear cut term and then foist their own house rules upon it. My rebuttal to anyone who tries to argue that it can't possibly mean what it means is a resounding "Big deal."

I'd play it as written.



#11 Turambar

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 06:38 AM

LinkN said:

Charlie Kain's special ability, Connections, reads "Any Phase: Charlie may gain Allies that have been returned to the box."

 

I think this means that whenever one of the starting 11 investigators is returned to the box (which means, i. e., a mythos card instructing players to remove one ally from the original 11 and putting it to the box), Charlie may take his card. But maybe I'm wrong, never tried KH yet, nor have I read the rules, I'm snowed under with things to do and I still have to play scenario 6 of the league.

That's just my impression reguarding the description of his ability as stated a couple of posts before



#12 Kobu

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 09:59 AM

No, "returned to the box" means "returned to the box". You can play your way, but again, that's your house rule.



#13 thorgrim

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 10:59 AM

Turambar said:

LinkN said:

 

Charlie Kain's special ability, Connections, reads "Any Phase: Charlie may gain Allies that have been returned to the box."

 

 

 

I think this means that whenever one of the starting 11 investigators is returned to the box (which means, i. e., a mythos card instructing players to remove one ally from the original 11 and putting it to the box), Charlie may take his card. But maybe I'm wrong, never tried KH yet, nor have I read the rules, I'm snowed under with things to do and I still have to play scenario 6 of the league.

That's just my impression reguarding the description of his ability as stated a couple of posts before

 

 

I think you are misreading the past tense of the statement into present tense. It doesn't say Charlie may gain allies when they are returned to the box. It says Charlie may gain allies that have (already) been returned to the box.



#14 Turambar

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 01:18 PM

thorgrim said:

I think you are misreading the past tense of the statement into present tense. It doesn't say Charlie may gain allies when they are returned to the box. It says Charlie may gain allies that have (already) been returned to the box.

Got it! I take your point, it's not that clear



#15 mageith

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 06:11 PM

thorgrim said:

Turambar said:

 

I think you are misreading the past tense of the statement into present tense. It doesn't say Charlie may gain allies when they are returned to the box. It says Charlie may gain allies that have (already) been returned to the box.

Though I don't think this question will actually be decided grammatically, the phrase "have been returned"  is actually a present tense, not a past tense.   Precisely it is present perfect passive, which means the act is completed in the present by someone else (as opposed to the object itself completing it, ie, a card cannot return itself to the box).

http://owl.english.p.../g_passive.html

The past form would be "had been returned".  

There are other issues, so again, I don't think the answer is determined gramatically and every solution offered breaks one rule or another as far as I can tell.

The main other issue, IMO, is the term "gain". Allies are taken, but sanity, stamina and clue tokens are gained.  Sometimes these gains are passive.

A clear description of Kane's ability could have been written at the time. Too bad a clear description had not been written.  We all could have gained from it, but now we must take what we have or simply return Kane to the box if we draw him to prevent confusion.   He's not an impressive investigator IMO (unless you wildly interpret that he gains all allies that are returned to box which includes all extra allies (up to 23) after the official 11 are chosen.  (Kane comes into existance on phase 4 of  the set up and the Ally deck is created on phase 6 of the setup.))

I think someone said there are 32 interpretations of Kane's ability. I say there are zero interpretations that don't break a rule that isn't mentioned in his special ability.



#16 Conejo

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 03:59 AM

the interpretation (and thus the way we play Charles) is rather simple:

any allies that have been returned to the box are fair game for him whenever he would gain an ally.

if you encounter Ruby Standish at the TSL, but her card has been removed, you still get her.  if you go to Ma's Boarding House and gain an ally, you may choose from the deck or from the "returned to box" deck.  the intent seemed as clear as Ashcan Pete's ability to pull from either the top or bottom of decks (you have two choices whenever you have a choice).

i do have to say that the context of the ability to the rest of the game wouldn't lead me to believe that you just gain all discarded allies immediately.



#17 mageith

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 05:20 AM

Conejo said: the interpretationand thus the way we play Charles) is rather simple

any allies that have been returned to the box are fair game for him whenever he would gain an ally.

if you encounter Ruby Standish at the TSL, but her card has been removed, you still get her.  if you go to Ma's Boarding House and gain an ally, you may choose from the deck or from the "returned to box" deck.  the intent seemed as clear as Ashcan Pete's ability to pull from either the top or bottom of decks (you have two choices whenever you have a choice).

 That's how we interpreted him at first. And boy is he boring. 1) The rule you are breaking that isn't referred to in Charlie's rule is the game rule that limits the game to 11 allies.  Of course, if you incorporate the 11 ally limit, as many have, then you are creating a process that isn't called for.  2) Then you have to decide (interpret) that the term "gain" is the  same as the term "take" and FFG was just sloppy in their rule writing instead of "intending" to use "gain" as its used else where and 3) that they mistakenly misused their tense.

In other words, the come up with this clear intention, you have to posit three errors in one short but complex sentence.  This is not to say you may not one day be declared correct.

It amazes me that FFG, if they intended Charlie to work your way they wouldn't have written:

Any Phase: Charlie may take Allies that are otherwise out of the game (have been returned to the box) even if doing so exceeds the 11 card Ally limit.

Also your interpretation allows Charlie to take Professor Rice, the main over the top ally, if he every buys an ally from Ma's since any allies are fair game to him.

 

 Conejo said: i do have to say that the context of the ability to the rest of the game wouldn't lead me to believe that you just gain all discarded allies immediately.

 Of course I never said that he gains all discarded allies, nor do I think anyone else has.  Neither does the rule.  Discarded allies are returned to the Ally deck.  Allies removed from the game are returned to the box.  For example, if Duke is used, it is not returned to the box.  (By the way, I have no idea HOW Duke restores Stamina by being discarded.  I am reminded of a story I read long, long ago (maybe by Jack London) about a man about to freeze to death, who cuts open his beloved dog and puts his hands inside of the dog to prevent them from freezing.)

The game mechanic that puts ally cards into the box is the Terror Level, which Charlie not uncoincidentally is able to prevent.

And now a question.  How does the "context of the ability" indicate Charlie does not gain each ally as is returned to the box?  The immediate context of his ability is that Charlie is a politician and that he can prevent  allies from being returned to the box by keeping the Terror Level down.  This puts a politician at a moral dilemma.  How cool and contextual is that!!

This interpretation only breaks one rule.  That Charlie doesn't gain all the allies that are returned to the box at setup.  This is clearly over the top. However it uses all the terms in Charlie's rule by their standard meanings and and correct tense.

To be clear again: I'm not really saying my interpretation is corrrect.  It's just no more wrong that any other interpretation, it uses all the words of Charlie's rules as written except for the setup exception, uses the immediate context creatively as I hope FFG did and most importantly, is a lot more fun. I also maintain it is not out of balance. 

Though if Charlie does somehow end up with all 11 allies because the terror level went very high, he'd really have an awesome army and could have some stats in double digits.  We've played Charlie about a half dozen times under this rule and he's never gained more 4 allies.  Of course, we have not intentionally gone out to maximize him either by letting the terror level climb.  The main abuse would probably occur if Glaaki were the Old One but being overrun by Servants of Glaaki is sort of self-limiting as is being devoured when the terror level reaches 10.



#18 Frank

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 10:02 PM

mageith said:

It amazes me that FFG, if they intended Charlie to work your way they wouldn't have written:

Any Phase: Charlie may take Allies that are otherwise out of the game (have been returned to the box) even if doing so exceeds the 11 card Ally limit.

 

Wait, that amazes you? Any ally you take out of the box by definition exceeds the current ally limit. Even allies that were in the game and removed because of terror increases are above the current limit because the current limit is reduced by the current Terror Track (which never goes down).

 

If you think that Charlie Kane starts counting cards as being returned to the box during setup, then by definition you are going to be OK with him not mentioning the Ally limit. Practically every use of his power is going to exceed the Ally Limit. The ally limit is a total red herring. The question is not whether he can exceed that limit, but whether his ability remembers that those allies were out of the box before the game properly started so that he can target them for having been returned to the box.

 

-Frank



#19 mageith

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 04:42 AM

Frank said: Wait, that amazes you? Any ally you take out of the box by definition exceeds the current ally limit. Even allies that were in the game and removed because of terror increases are above the current limit because the current limit is reduced by the current Terror Track (which never goes down).

 

Mageith says: OK, no argument.

Frank wrote: If you think that Charlie Kane starts counting cards as being returned to the box during setup, then by definition you are going to be OK with him not mentioning the Ally limit.

Mageith writes: I'm not sure what you are saying here and I don't think I said what it implies.  Apparently many folks are confused by the apparent unresolved contradiction of having the 11 card ally deck limit and Charlie's rules. Personally I'm OK with Charlie's rule breaking the ally limit rule, of it does.  I don't think it does, nor does it have to.

Frank writes: Practically every use of his power is going to exceed the Ally Limit. The ally limit is a total red herring.

Frank's beginning ally selection clearly deals with the ally limit and implies, or at least I infer that, that limit continues to be dealt with. Perhaps it is a red herring, but I'd be interested to know why you are so absolutely sure it is.

Frank: The question is not whether he can exceed that limit, but whether his ability remembers that those allies were out of the box before the game properly started so that he can target them for having been returned to the box.

Mageith: Is that THE question? It's not my question.  When a game creates a definition and then uses a definition, then I think its presumptious to ignore that definition.  The game created a defintion of being out of the game and calls it "returned to the box". So yes, Charlie,  remembers ALL allies that have been "returned to the box" or otherwise removed from the game.  Charlie comes into existence on phase 4 and the ally deck is created on phase 6 of the setup.  I can't see how your question is a(nother) Charlie question at all.



#20 Kobu

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 06:10 AM

mageith,

As far as I can tell, you are making distinctions that don't exist. Take and gain? They are synonyms in this case.

All Charlie's ability does is ignore the "if available" wording with regards to allies returned to the box. Conejo has it perfectly correct: any allies that have been returned to the box are fair game for him whenever he would gain an ally.

Your interpretation as I understand it would need wording such as:  "Whenever allies are returned to the box, Charlie may instead gain them as allies." That's not even close.






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