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Hypnosis / Escape bat question


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#1 Rasiel

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 11:52 AM

hi a question :

Hunters play hypnosis and Dracula declares his next move to move to a adjacent city.

Q: What happens if he some hunter enters combat with dracula and dracula escapes with Escape as bat card ?

a) Can he move anywhere(1-2 cities away) he wants ?

b) or if he can move anywhere he wants, if he moves somewhere from where he can still do the declared move, must he do it ?

c) or must he retreat to a city where he has declared his next move ?

In what situacions is he freed from his "declared move". FAQ states that this is canceled if hunters prevent him from doing that move (such as stormy seas), but he plays escape as bat card willingly, does it apply ?

and

Q: Can dracula always use his power card (Double Back most often) when moving with Evasion event card, succesful Escape as bat, etc ... or is he limited to use them only when it is his turns movement phase ?

thanks



#2 Julia

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 02:26 PM

Rasiel said:

Q: Can dracula always use his power card (Double Back most often) when moving with Evasion event card, succesful Escape as bat, etc ... or is he limited to use them only when it is his turns movement phase ?

Dracula's powers can be used only during his movement phase. As far as your other questions are concerned, need to think about them; about this one, I'm pretty sure


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#3 Julia

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 12:01 AM

Rasiel said:

hi a question :

Hunters play hypnosis and Dracula declares his next move to move to a adjacent city.

Q: What happens if he some hunter enters combat with dracula and dracula escapes with Escape as bat card ?

a) Can he move anywhere(1-2 cities away) he wants ?

b) or if he can move anywhere he wants, if he moves somewhere from where he can still do the declared move, must he do it ?

c) or must he retreat to a city where he has declared his next move ?

In what situacions is he freed from his "declared move". FAQ states that this is canceled if hunters prevent him from doing that move (such as stormy seas), but he plays escape as bat card willingly, does it apply ?

Ok, thought about this one as well. I'd say you can avoid going in a declared city only if this becomes a non legal movement from the location you are now. (note: hypnosis forces you to declare your next move, but it's not said "the next movement in Dracula's movement phase"; there are events and circumstances like the one you specified that allows Dracula to move even during the Hunters phase) So, if you're in city A and you declare the Hunters your next move  will bring you in city B and then they arrive in city A, forcing you to fight, even if you use an Escape as a bat card, you're still forced to move to city B, as long as it is a legal movement.

But this was your next move! So, let's supposed Dr. Seward played Hypnosis on Val Helsing, and you say them you're going to city B as your next move. Then Mina arrives in city A and you escape with Escape as a bat. You have to move to city B. Then time advances and Dracula moves again. He is no longer forced to move to city B, since he has already moved there, and now it's free to move to a different city: his duties have been attempted


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#4 Steve-O

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 02:24 AM

Rasiel said:

Hunters play hypnosis and Dracula declares his next move to move to a adjacent city.

Q: What happens if he some hunter enters combat with dracula and dracula escapes with Escape as bat card ?

In what situacions is he freed from his "declared move". FAQ states that this is canceled if hunters prevent him from doing that move (such as stormy seas), but he plays escape as bat card willingly, does it apply ?

In addition to Julia's suggestion, there is one other possibility I can see:  Dracula may move anywhere he likes with Escape as Bat, however, if he can still make the declared move from his new location, he must do so.  If he cannot make the declared move from his new location, then he loses his entire turn, the same way as a hunter who prevents himself from completing a declared move would.  The FAQ only talks about hunters doing this, but I think this situation counts as Dracula doing the same thing, assuming he's free to go anywhere he likes with his escape.

From the FAQ:

"However, if a Hunter prevents himself or another Hunter from making a declared move (e.g., through the play of Stormy Seas), the Hunter is not freed from his or declaration but instead loses his or her entire turn."



#5 Julia

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 04:25 AM

Steve-O said:

From the FAQ:

"However, if a Hunter prevents himself or another Hunter from making a declared move (e.g., through the play of Stormy Seas), the Hunter is not freed from his or declaration but instead loses his or her entire turn."

Yep, it has sense indeed, but... the main point is that Stormy seas forces you to a particular action that can be in conflict with the declared one, while Escape as a bat should allow you to move in the same city you previously have pointed out as your next move. Not to mention that Dracula is not obliged to play the Escape as a bat, he can make the combat end even in different ways. Don't know. Hypnosis seems to be very dogmatic on the "next move" thing. I'd say that if Dracula moves in a different way because he plays, by his own will, a particular card, well, it's more like he's cheating. Just a personal point of view, obviously (and something that I'm not so happy to say, since I've almost always played Dracula)


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#6 Steve-O

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 01:22 AM

Julia said:

the main point is that Stormy seas forces you to a particular action that can be in conflict with the declared one, while Escape as a bat should allow you to move in the same city you previously have pointed out as your next move. Not to mention that Dracula is not obliged to play the Escape as a bat, he can make the combat end even in different ways.

Stormy Seas doesn't really force an action, except Dracula's if he happens to be in the named sea zone.  It can't be played on a sea zone that contains a hunter.  Nor is the Hunter ever going to be obliged to play Stormy Seas in such a way as to invalidate his or another hunter's declared move.  Even if he really wants to play the card, there are plenty of sea zones to choose from, he doesn't need to pick the one he or his friend are going to be moving into next turn.

I'm not saying your interpretation is wrong, mind you.  To be honest I think both ideas have merit within the rules and nothing to show them incorrect.  It mostly comes down to a gut reaction which one you should use in your own games.  My point is just that the hunter has a certain level of choice with Stormy Seas, but apparently there's an expectation that he could do this to himself anyway.

Julia said:

Don't know. Hypnosis seems to be very dogmatic on the "next move" thing. I'd say that if Dracula moves in a different way because he plays, by his own will, a particular card, well, it's more like he's cheating. Just a personal point of view, obviously (and something that I'm not so happy to say, since I've almost always played Dracula)

I think any game mechanic that attempts to fix events which haven't happened yet is going to be fraught with such ambiguities.  I also agree with the idea that this sort of card play is akin to cheating.  If the window is open in the rules, however, there may be times when losing a turn is preferable to carrying out a predetermined action that is against your favour.  It's not like you don't get punished for manipulating yourself out of your declared action.

The more I think about though, the more I wonder: The idea behind declared actions is that the opposing player will know where you are at the end of your next movement phase (this is particularly important in the case of the hunters getting a declared move out of Dracula.)  If Dracula's play of Escape as Bat ends up counting as his declared move and forces him to go where he said he would, then he is free on his own turn to move on to another place.  He will no longer be in the declared position he was expected to be.  By my interpretation of the Escape it is still possible for him to be elsewhere, of course, but at least he loses a turn in that place for his efforts.

I suppose we could always ask FFG for a clarification if we wanted an absolute ruling, although I'm personally inclined to just leave it as "do whichever feels right to you and your group."



#7 Julia

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 02:26 AM

Steve-O said:

 

The idea behind declared actions is that the opposing player will know where you are at the end of your next movement phase (this is particularly important in the case of the hunters getting a declared move out of Dracula.)

 

 

Steve, the points you touched are really interesting. The definition of "next move" is the main difference between our two points of view. For you, the next move spots the location you are at the end of your next movement phase (allowing some intermediate movements to be possible), for me it's simply the location you are at the end of your next movement regardless of the phase you have to move (no intermediate movements allowed). From these two points of view descend two different theories, and yours is really good :.smiling::

I don't know whether there will be any official ruling about this (is still FFG supporting this game? it seems to be out of print since a long time), but in the meantime... yep, what you said, "do whichever feels right to you and your group."

(and thanks everyone for the wonderful debate ::smiling::)


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#8 Rasiel

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 08:19 PM

Well, i think the "next move" is the right way for us, because this was how we decided to play it when this situation occurred in our game. Next move is simply next move, movement phase is only one and is not mentioned on the card. Well, too bad for Dracula if he draws Evasion after he declares his next move :)

In that game, if dracula could move where he wants to go, lose 1 turn wouldnt be high prize for it, not by long shot. He was surrounded by hunters and next turn 2-3 would catch him, if moved by escape 1-2 cities away he would be safe enough to encounter no or max 1 hunter next turn.

FFG seems to have a lot of work, to write some new FAQ (on Horus Heresy, there is no FAQ at all!)






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