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Power Fist and Forearm Weapon Mounting


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#1 Anicetus Cleon

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 10:21 PM

Hello everyone!

So, if a character uses his power fists and has (for example) a bolt pistol mounted on his forearm, can he simultaneously hit another character with a fist and shoot him with the pistol? It seems, on the one hand, quite natural, while the construction of a power fist doesn't contradict the usage of a forearm-mounted weapon, but on the other hand, a character with power fists and two ballistic weapons is totally overpowered. So, how would you deal with such situation?



#2 Bilateralrope

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 11:06 PM

I've always imagined that anyone firing a forearm mounted weapon has their hand flat and that if you form a fist, you risk hitting it, even with an empty hand. If you angle your fist out of the way, it then isn't in a good punching position. Since a power fist is bulky, it would make this issue even worse.



#3 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 12:41 AM

Bilateralrope said:

I've always imagined that anyone firing a forearm mounted weapon has their hand flat and that if you form a fist, you risk hitting it, even with an empty hand. If you angle your fist out of the way, it then isn't in a good punching position. Since a power fist is bulky, it would make this issue even worse.

Well, unless the 'forearm mounted weapon' is actually fitted to the back of the power fist.


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#4 Gribble_the_Munchkin

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 03:11 AM

There are many examples of weapons being mounted on the back or bottom of powerfists in the table top game.  Therefore in cannon it is possible.

Its not too game breaking either. Pair of power fists in close combat, pair of bolt pistols at range. Both are possible by the rules and background. Having a pair of powerfists that can also function as bolt pistols isn't broken in any sense.

 

Unless you player wants to shot AND punch in the same round in which case you need to slap their munchkin faces and tell them to behave.



#5 Gribble_the_Munchkin

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 03:13 AM

Hang on, you said simultaneously hit and punch. Thats a no no. He can shoot or he can attack in close combat. Not both.

 

Powerfist/boltpistol = yes

shooting and punching at the same time with the same weapon = no.

 

Remember you can only use the same action once per round.



#6 Quicksilver

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 04:48 AM

Gribble is right, even if they mount both, they can't use both at the same time.

If, for some reason, you do allow 'gunblade' style weapons, of which this would be one, i'd strongly sugest intigrating the effects into 1 damage roll, rather then treating it as 2 seperate hits.



#7 Santiago

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 05:59 AM

 You can mount a Bolter on a Powerfist but you can only make 1 attack action each round...
 



#8 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 12:44 PM

Santiago said:

 You can mount a Bolter on a Powerfist but you can only make 1 attack action each round...
 

However, in theory, a powerfist with a bolt pistol on it could be used to make multiple attacks per the Two-Weapon Fighitng rules, so long as you had both Two-Weapon Fighting talents... you just wouldn't get any benefit for wielding something else in your other hand.


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#9 Sirion

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 02:53 AM

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Santiago said:

 

 You can mount a Bolter on a Powerfist but you can only make 1 attack action each round...
 

 

 

However, in theory, a powerfist with a bolt pistol on it could be used to make multiple attacks per the Two-Weapon Fighitng rules, so long as you had both Two-Weapon Fighting talents... you just wouldn't get any benefit for wielding something else in your other hand.

 

IIRC Two-Weapon-Wielder allows you do another attack with your off-hand ... not with the same hand... like Gribble stated that goes for no...

standard attack for the right hand to hit in melee + standard attack for boltpistol dosn't work because it is the same action twice

two-weapon wielder works but only with the right powerfist and the left boltgun (and maybe the next round the other way arround) but you don't need 2 of each for this maneouvre

if you however get that DH-ascencion-Cultist talent to do a charge/multiattack with a half action or get a auto stabilized weapon or the trait... suddenly it works by the game mechanics... but again auto stabilised does offer no bonus to the 2 of each style... just the death cultist special rule... which would allow for 4 melee attacks and have a half action left over for a standard attack with your bolt-pistol... (or maybe a mounted auto stabilised HW and then you still have your standard attack action left for a MIU interface weapon)

but this is not equipment this is abuse of traits (not talents)... normally you are equally off with boltpistols,power fists and quick draw



#10 Kasatka

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 03:09 AM

Assuming the character has Two Weapon Wielder (Ballistic) + (Melee) plus all the rate of attack increasing talents, the RAW comes down to you having 4 attacks, split between your weapons as you want, and since pistols can be used im melee i would say this:
Sure, if your character can afford the thrones to buy 2 powerfists, 2 bolt pistols and 2 forearm weapon mounts, can find and afford a skilled enough techie to make the modifications AND has the skills and talents to use these monstrosities then yes, it's perfectly legal.

On the other hand, why would they want to? 4 x powerfist attacks is far superior to 2 + 2x bolt pistol attacks.

At least go for something snazzy on the arms, like inferno pistols or shuriken pistols


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#11 Aajav-Khan

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 01:57 AM

Kasatka said:

On the other hand, why would they want to? 4 x powerfist attacks is far superior to 2 + 2x bolt pistol attacks.

At least go for something snazzy on the arms, like inferno pistols or shuriken pistols

     Well, the pistol option might come handy when fighting multiple opponents and some of them are out of reach for the power fists.    

     *PUNCH**BLAM**PUNCH* 

    I wait the moment when one of my players gets this idea. I anticipate some oh-so-innocent question about PF+flamer combo. ( Yes, he plays Vulkan Marines in the TT. )



#12 Kasatka

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 11:12 PM

Once again though, why go for all these expensive 'eggs-in-one-basket' weapons when you use the same throne gelt or influence to aquire an awesome suit of armour, a collection of powerful and rare weapons or something more sinister and esoteric.

I have 2 characters in an ongoing game: a sorcerous adept and a gunmetallican scum.

The adept has focuss all of his income and influence into aquiring forbidden tomes and knowledges, the only acknowledgement to his rank of soon-to-be Interrogator being a shoulder mounted MIU bolt pistol only recently aquired.

The scum on the other hand entered the group later on as a gun for hire and has since expanded his arsenal of pistols from a pair of autos and a pair of handcannons to also include silencers for the autopistols, red-dot sights for the hand cannons, a pair of bolt pistols, a pair of plasma pistols, a pair of sawn of shotguns with dragonsbreath ammo, an archaeotech laspistol, a handbow with explosive quarrels and a recently 'stolen' suit of inquisitorial light carapace from his previous master.

Either character can happily (well not in the case of the gunslinger, lose all of their gear and still function).

So while i say sure, allow your players to come up with whatever combo-weapons the can think of that don't break the canon, be aware that you can remove them whenever you want. A quote i have started to run games by is "Better to let your players have whatever they want and later remove it, than to poo-poo their wants and have a grumpy group."


Only the insane have strength enough to prosper.

Only those that prosper may truly judge what is sane.


#13 Cailieg

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 06:12 AM

Sirion said:

N0-1_H3r3 said:

 

Santiago said:

 

 You can mount a Bolter on a Powerfist but you can only make 1 attack action each round...
 

 

 

However, in theory, a powerfist with a bolt pistol on it could be used to make multiple attacks per the Two-Weapon Fighitng rules, so long as you had both Two-Weapon Fighting talents... you just wouldn't get any benefit for wielding something else in your other hand.

 

 

 

IIRC Two-Weapon-Wielder allows you do another attack with your off-hand ... not with the same hand... like Gribble stated that goes for no...

standard attack for the right hand to hit in melee + standard attack for boltpistol dosn't work because it is the same action twice

two-weapon wielder works but only with the right powerfist and the left boltgun (and maybe the next round the other way arround) but you don't need 2 of each for this maneouvre

if you however get that DH-ascencion-Cultist talent to do a charge/multiattack with a half action or get a auto stabilized weapon or the trait... suddenly it works by the game mechanics... but again auto stabilised does offer no bonus to the 2 of each style... just the death cultist special rule... which would allow for 4 melee attacks and have a half action left over for a standard attack with your bolt-pistol... (or maybe a mounted auto stabilised HW and then you still have your standard attack action left for a MIU interface weapon)

but this is not equipment this is abuse of traits (not talents)... normally you are equally off with boltpistols,power fists and quick draw

 

 

Unless you have the Ascended Talent Storm of Blows, which allows the character to break up his multiple attacks in any way he so chooses.

 

 

Alexis

*smiles at the munchkin weapon*



#14 Quicksilver

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 06:51 AM

Fists of Ultramar anyone?

But yeah, with out going in to crazy DH stuff, the only real benefit is not having to switch weapons out when going between ranged and melee.



#15 the 8 spider

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 12:09 AM

from france

well in the dh forum i talk about power armor  and mounted weapons. i agree that they are better options than bolter for that. homwever without a power armour you can lift and use two power fist. only on and you already need a backpack for a powersource. two and you can only powerfist the ground. so aint a option.

but powerfists are not the only option good for that conbination

powerblade

acreage gauntlets

shock gauntlets

and other

i dont think it s so much munchkins if the player aquire it in the course of a campaign and not like if  awake the morning of christmas  with his house full of gift.

remenber that by the time he get it his ennemy will be probably stronger and better eqquipped too.



#16 DarknessEternal

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 11:54 AM

the 8 spider said:

homwever without a power armour you can lift and use two power fist. only on

 

Assuming you mean "without power armour, you can't lift and use two power fists, only one" that simply isn't necessarily true.  Many characters could have the carrying capacity to carry two power fists.



#17 the 8 spider

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 09:04 AM

from france

you misread and your quote is incomplete. and yes i mean withourt a power armour you can use only one. "Many characters could have the carrying capacity to carry two power fists." really? how? and how whilethey still be capable of carry on e the fight.  look at the catachan miniature you will see that he has a very bulky backpack and no place for two..........

how could it figth with two it will be too heavy so.. he will only fist the ground because the wheight will forced him to kiss the ground. also remnber that the only know " being" to have this is magnus calgar and he has  space marines power armor. at least for wha i know of the fluff.

so technically yes it is possible to have one whitout being a SM.  But i will never give it to a player before a lot of adventure and personnal involvement be it in the creation of the power armor or it s discovery.

after all it can be considererd a artefact on his own.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



#18 Sirion

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 11:34 AM

fluff aside in game terms a power fist (with everything it needs to work) weights 12kg

so anybode who can lift 24 kg can carry and use 2 powerfists as long as he wants...

anyone with a combined SB and TB of 5 can carry 27kg

anyone with a combined SB and TB of 3 can Lift 2 of those and use them at least 1 hour without combat penalties (but with reduced movement)

 

a bolt pistol weights 3.5 kg a forearm weapon mounting weights an additional 1kg means 9kg for two

a character with combined SB and TB of 6 (which every character can achieve with ease) therefore can use two power fists and 2 forearm mounted bolt pistols as he can carry 36kg and the stuff weights only 33kg... 3kg is not much for armor and stuff (and of course ammo is not in the package till now but a clip of boltpistol ammo weights only 0.35kg)

but if I go melee I'm probably playing with more then 30S and 30T and mesh for example isn't that heavy either...

 

another thing for fluff I don't recall that very good but in the third book of that ultramarines trilogy ain't there a space marine who get's his power armour cut off but still uses his power fist? (which is retractable by the way)



#19 the 8 spider

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 12:22 PM

from france

for the fluff don t know that one. and for the quote it is not arrogance but just to be clear.

But in rt page 130  ligne 6 to 9 "unless worn as part of a power armour, they normally require a heavy backpack power  source connected to the fist via heavy cables" so the loopholes could be the normaly. but since the normally is not cover by the rules.........

so one heavy backpack on the back. wight 25kg + one power fist 13kg not 12 total 38 kg. it is already over your demonstration but let s say that the man is stronger than in your example. where do you put your second pack pack? on the chest? isn't it a little bit too cumbersome in a figth?

plus we reach 76 kg in this case and no need of the forearm mounted bolt pistol to see that it is too much.

so i still think that the character only power fist the ground.

lets say that you don 't need a backpack power suplies for it; where do you get it ? isn't it a artefact? can you get it just like that? i don't thnik so and you will have to use either a packback or a power armour.

last point: the marine.  a marine can lift is power fist like a armored gloves because his power armor give him 20 bonus strenght;  it can deal alot of damage by itself whit that.

another exception could be a explorator with this combination of weapons with the the right transformations that can redirect energy but not for long and they will have to recharge quickly.

where i have a problems is with the idea that shooting and punching is imposible in mélée.  i am not sure of that; i  find you argument interesting but again in the fluff they are examples of characters (mostly SM) punching while shooting in the hole created by the punch.  so do we have to understand that it is two separate action just a few second one after the other; it so quick that in the fluff it is the same think?

or... page 133 "this heavy bracing allows a singled ranged weapon to be mounted along the arm with specific hand movements triggering the weapon".

what if the specific movements are open palm equal firing and because it is "movements" and not "movement" another triggering movement could be punching. is their a limit to number of specific "movements " for the triggering?

so is it possible to do both with this idea? and with the storm of blow talent make for each punching attack a shoot attack?

well i agree it  seem absolutlitely munchkin and i will forbide it in my game but i wonder if it is possible or not.

 

 

 



#20 Bilateralrope

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 12:32 PM

Sirion said:

fluff aside in game terms a power fist (with everything it needs to work) weights 12kg

so anybode who can lift 24 kg can carry and use 2 powerfists as long as he wants...

anyone with a combined SB and TB of 5 can carry 27kg

anyone with a combined SB and TB of 3 can Lift 2 of those and use them at least 1 hour without combat penalties (but with reduced movement)

 

a bolt pistol weights 3.5 kg a forearm weapon mounting weights an additional 1kg means 9kg for two

a character with combined SB and TB of 6 (which every character can achieve with ease) therefore can use two power fists and 2 forearm mounted bolt pistols as he can carry 36kg and the stuff weights only 33kg... 3kg is not much for armor and stuff (and of course ammo is not in the package till now but a clip of boltpistol ammo weights only 0.35kg)

but if I go melee I'm probably playing with more then 30S and 30T and mesh for example isn't that heavy either...

 

another thing for fluff I don't recall that very good but in the third book of that ultramarines trilogy ain't there a space marine who get's his power armour cut off but still uses his power fist? (which is retractable by the way)

Sirion said:

fluff aside in game terms a power fist (with everything it needs to work) weights 12kg

so anybode who can lift 24 kg can carry and use 2 powerfists as long as he wants...

anyone with a combined SB and TB of 5 can carry 27kg

anyone with a combined SB and TB of 3 can Lift 2 of those and use them at least 1 hour without combat penalties (but with reduced movement)

 

a bolt pistol weights 3.5 kg a forearm weapon mounting weights an additional 1kg means 9kg for two

a character with combined SB and TB of 6 (which every character can achieve with ease) therefore can use two power fists and 2 forearm mounted bolt pistols as he can carry 36kg and the stuff weights only 33kg... 3kg is not much for armor and stuff (and of course ammo is not in the package till now but a clip of boltpistol ammo weights only 0.35kg)

but if I go melee I'm probably playing with more then 30S and 30T and mesh for example isn't that heavy either...

 

another thing for fluff I don't recall that very good but in the third book of that ultramarines trilogy ain't there a space marine who get's his power armour cut off but still uses his power fist? (which is retractable by the way)

Lets add armour onto the guy to get a more realistic loadout (All weights from the RTcore rulebook):

 - Power fist: 13kg each. This would include the weight of the backpack power supply, and I see nothing saying that the power supply is bulky.

 - Storm Trooper Carapace: 15kg

This means they need to carry at least 41kg. SB+TB of 7 gives a carrying capacity of 45kg, but I'll up this to 8 so they have space capacity for other useful items. Getting strength and toughness to 40 isn't difficult, especially if you are a melee focused character.

 

Now lets give the character some better gear to help:

 - Upgrade the Carapace to best quality, halving its weight. Now the total weight is only 33.5kg so he can scrape by with a SB+TB of 6. I'll go with SB+TB=7, so we are down to toughness 30, strength 40.

 - Synthetic Muscle Grafts: Common quality will give +1SB, so we are down to 30 on both strength and toughness. Good quality will give unnatural strength x2, but I'm ignoring it because it also gives an agility penalty and with two power fists you will need dodge to avoid being hit.

 

So with all that gear a rich character with strength and toughness at the human average (30) will be able to use two power fists, wear decent armour and still have 11.5kg left of their carrying capacity.






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